Interviewee: Donna Holland
Interviewer: Amy Stevens
June 29th, 2006
Eastern Fine Paper Oral History Project

Amy Stevens: This is Amy Stevens and it’s June 29th, 2006 and I am at the home of Donna Holland in Eddington, Maine and Donna worked at Eastern Fine Paper for a number of years so she’s going to tell me a little bit about that. Donna can you just start by telling me when you started at Eastern and how you sort of got started there?

Donna Holland: Well I actually worked in the Lincoln mill for a year in 1969 and then I moved back to the Bangor area and I was at John Bapt’s for a summer working administrative office and then I went to the Brewer mill to interview and that’s when I, I had a little bit of experience from the Lincoln mill so I started at Brewer in 1970.

AS: 1970.

DH: Yes.

AS: And what was the position that you applied for?

DH: I was working actually in accounting and doing, I was an extra in accounting so that I was doing accounts payable, accounts receivable and some production work, production records and things of that type.

AS: And so you sort of thought it would be a good place to work because of your experience at Lincoln or did you have other folks there that you knew at the Brewer mill?

DH: No, I didn’t know anybody. It was just the experience of having worked at a manufacturing plant so I just, you know good pay, better than you know banking and that type of thing, for back then.

AS: Now where you from Brewer?

DH: I graduated from Brewer High School.

AS: You did.

DH: Yes.

AS: Great, another witch.

DH: That’s right.

AS: And were you married or anything at the time you started at Eastern?

DH: No.

AS: No, ok.

DH: No, I was single.

AS: So can you tell me about what a typical day in accounting would be like?

DH: Oh goodness, back then I you know, it’s just record keeping. I don’t know what a typical day is, 8 to 5 and record keeping. I don’t even recall that many years ago exactly what I did on a day to day basis.

AS: Would you have to do other things like answering phones or setting up meetings or anything like that?

DH: Not initially, no I didn’t. I worked in accounting and like I said I did production records, that I remember and that’s just tailing up the tons of paper that was produced and finished and that type of thing. That was one of the keys when I went to work there when I interviewed, they actually, they were asked, I think they were offering like 75 dollars a week for that position and I said no. I felt that I had a years experience in paper manufacturing and that I could hit the road running. I knew, they were the same production logs that Lincoln used. They looked exactly the same.

AS: Right.

DH: So I knew they didn’t have to train me on those. I already knew how to read them and I understood them and everything and he baulked a little bit at paying me more but you know I said, well where do you get somebody that knows what a decal is and what a plug and a dryer is and things like that.

AS: Good for you.

DH: You know, so I said well, all right, if I’m not worth that then I guess I’ll just stay where I’m at and I left. And he called me, I don’t know if it was one or two days later and so I went to work for them. He did pay me more than you know that so

AS: Excellent.

DH: So that’s how it all started and I was doing some work in purchasing also because accounting didn’t keep me busy enough so I was helping out in doing purchase orders and just different things that they wanted. I can remember the personnel manager they called them then, came up, I don’t remember. It was like a couple three months after I had started and he said you know how do you like it? I go oh, it’s ok. I didn’t know that I’d want to do it forever but they had an opening in data processing at that time and so I said well, I’d like to try that. That would be something new to learn computers and that was. [End Track 1, Begin Track 2]

DH: way back when computers were huge and they were using the punch cards.

AS: Oh yeah.

DH: At that time. So I went, I changed from accounting and went to data processing for probably a couple of years and then they needed an assistant in the personnel department and so I went in the personnel department, as the assistant to the manager. I was there for five years and that, or until 75 and the personnel manger had a heart attack and went out.

AS: Really.

DH: So we were a two person department plus there was a safety director. So the safety director and I just ran the department and after we had done that for a year and the personnel manager still wasn’t able to come back, they finally, he went totally disabled and that was when we were owned by a Canadian company and they called me up to Canada and I had to take all kinds of tests. Had personality tests and intelligence tests and just the whole gammon and I guess I passed because I got the job.

AS: Great, after just being there five years.

DH: Yes so I became the personnel manager and from there it just grew. I think Joe, I mean take it all away from, that was in 75 and in 89 Joe Torras bought the mill and he brought on the Lincoln mill and it was probably 91 when they changed me to a Vice President and we hired a personnel manager or a human resource manager for the Brewer mill. We already had one in the Lincoln mill and then both mills, it plus corporate, I was responsible for the whole thing.

AS: Wow.

DH: And basically it went from there. I guess.

AS: That’s great. So you were vice president so there was a president as well or were you really responsible for things primarily?

DH: Well I mean the president was the president of the company.

AS: Oh I see, I see.

DH: And then you had a vice president of finance, a vice president of human resource, a vice president of manufacturing.

AS: So you really only had to answer to one person.

DH: Yes.

AS: Excellent, wow.

DH: Yes, and at the end I actually reported directly to Joe Torras.

AS: Did you?

DH: Yes, I didn’t, because you had a general manager. He did away with president. He changed them to general managers of the Brewer mill and a general manager of the Lincoln mill.

AS: Oh ok.

DH: Ok, so I didn’t report to either one of those people. I reported directly to Joe Torras at the end. By the, the last 3 years I really was mostly managing the pension plans and assisting the two human resource managers with, I negotiated the contracts, labor contracts, insurance contracts, you know be all insurance contracts and pension plans and we had 7 pension plans.

AS: Wow.

DH: Ok, 401K plans and a couple of union plans. Each one had their own 401K plan. Each one went with different ways of, in different financial arrangements.

AS: That’s interesting.

DH: So each union got to negotiate their own system and they choose to go two different ways.

AS: So when you say each union, you mean Eastern and Lincoln?

DH: Correct.

AS: Ok.

DH: Yes.

AS: See I just assumed that they would all have the same pension plans.

DH: No, no Lincoln and Brewer didn’t even, their contracts conflicted.

AS: Really. DH Yes. They had totally different philosophies, the people at Brewer versus the people at Lincoln. It was just different.

AS: Can you give an example maybe? [End Track 2, Begin Track 3]

DH: Seniority would be one real key. The Brewer plant was based on job seniority. Your mill seniority was important. Your department seniority was important but once you were trained in a job, someone from some other job just because they had been in the mill longer couldn’t bump you off that. You were protected, where as in Lincoln, no seniority was total and complete.

AS: Really.

DH: Ok, so that if this job was shut down then you could take and go over even though you didn’t know anything about another department or another job. You could bump people.

AS: Wow.

DH: Not at the top, but you could bump into so that it took more training, a lot more training and it’s, both systems are, it’s not like one was right and one was wrong. They really weren’t. There’s a plus for both of them and probably the job seniority is more of a plus for the company because it didn’t lose your trained people but it didn’t protect ultimately your top senior people, which you figure unions do.

AS: Right.

DH: Ok, where as the Lincoln mill really was very, very strong in that way.

AS: That’s really interesting.

DH: You know it’s just how they evolved over the years and at both, both mills were great mills to work with and you know it just took, you had to kind of take one hat off and put the other hat on and remember not to mix the two.

AS: Yes

DH: And to let people have their own individual thoughts.

AS: That must have been kind of tricky sometimes to just shift gears like that.

DH: Yes. Lincoln had a very strong human resource manager. So, I mean he knew the contracts. I didn’t really, I worked with him, ok and hopefully added something to it but he really ran the mill you know and did, he knew his contract and did the major negotiating. He really did. I helped more with the pensions and the insurances there than the real labor language because the Lincoln mill did its own.

AS: Ok.

DH: Yes, they handled it. They didn’t have a problem there.

AS: So you had a much more pro-active role at Eastern in terms of…?

DH: Yes. At Eastern of course I had, it started up in 68. I came in 1970 and from then on, I was there.

AS: Right.

DH: So I wrote the contracts. I knew the language and where as Dale Folnsby, who was the human resource manager with Lincoln had done the same thing. Not quite 1970 but even so he wrote the language and knew the language and was very comfortable with that. Yes, in the corporate frame of it, I think my strength was in the pension plans and the insurance contracts.

AS: It’s so interesting because almost every interview I do, everybody always says, it starts out by saying, and then I met with Donna Holland. So your name comes up a lot.

DH: From the Brewer mill I’m sure, well human resource in a small mill like that is the, we did everything, insurances but we also did the fun things. We did safety. Safety was in my department but we did the employee picnics, you know and all the fun things, the parties and all of that. And in the beginning, from the 70s to 89, it was more family business. It was a very small internal business so there was a lot of close contact and then when we became a part of a conglomerate, you didn’t have, it just had to get bigger.

AS: Yes.

DH: Ok, and you might have lost a little bit of that personal, everyday family type feel. Even though it was a big mill Brewer was [End Track 3, Begin Track 4]

DH: very small actually and was very internal until it became part of a conglomerate and then it had to grow.

AS: And that was in 89?

DH: That was in 89, yes.

AS: So in the 70s and 80s it was owned by EB Eddie?

DH: It was owned by the Canadian corporation but we literally, Mr. Hamilton who was the president I’m sure and probably the vice president of finance dealt with the Canadian people a lot. Most of us didn’t. Canada was happy with the way the mill was being run and we very rarely saw them. I would say that from, aside from me having to go up and have the tests and all that when I became the personnel manager, I really don’t think I saw anybody from human resource department of Canada more than three or four times.

AS: Really.

DH: Yes. When we were negotiating insurance contracts or pension plans, the paper work would go up, I’d talk to the head of human resource in Canada but they didn’t, their laws are different so that you know they said, ok as long as we’re complying with the laws and everything, it was all right.

AS: So you were a much more self sufficient mill.

DH: Yes, much more self sufficient.

AS: Wow.

DH: Yes, really did.

AS: So you were really sort of representing the mill side in these negotiations and then working with the union, is that how it worked?

DH: Well human resource I think is a middle ground. It was our responsibility to uphold the rules and regulations of the mill, to meet the needs of the employees and of management. Ok, so that you had to know your production and your needs there but you also had to know your labor contracts and everything. Now on the, in negotiating when you sit down, yes I was on the management side and I was in negotiating for the management contract. But you also had to work very closely with the union and know that you couldn’t break the rules, ok, the labor relation rules. That’s what we were for is to kind of stay middle of the road and ultimately sooner or later there was somebody that wasn’t going to be happy and somebody that was going to be happy or two half happies I guess is good as you can get right.

AS: So it really wasn’t as much us versus them.

DH: It wasn’t, probably in the end, ok the last few contracts were because of the paper industry was going down hill. Ok, and when you saw the mill going down and it was tougher negotiations. From 75 when I started negotiating until 89, negotiations were actually not bad.

AS: Really.

DH: I mean they were actually kind of fun. We usually were three, four days, five days.

AS: Wow.

DH: That was it. That was the maximum and most of that was just working out little details, you know but that was when the mill was flourishing. You know and when there were lots of wage increases and the whole country was booming. We saw the best of it. And then we saw the worst of it, as the paper industry is going the way textiles has and the way the shoe industry has, paper’s gone.

AS: Yes, unfortunately that’s true.

DH: Yes.

AS: It’s interesting to me that you said 89 as sort of the date where, sort of the cut off date of when negotiations were easy. Did something change significantly when Joe Torras took over in terms of negotiating contracts and working with the union?

DH: No, only the fact that again as you become part of a conglomerate, things work differently and also that was the era that, that’s when the foreign government, the foreign contracts started to come in. That really was the beginning of the end. You know, it actually had started probably before that, you know a little before that but [End Track 4, Begin Track 5]

DH: Yeah, I guess you can’t, I certainly wouldn’t, it’s not because Mr. Torres bought us. It’s only because things changed.

AS: In a larger sense.

DH: In a larger sense. When we were owned by the Canadian company, we were a little fish in a big sea and when we were bought by Mr. Torras we became the big fish in a little sea, you know and so the whole thing changed. The deep pockets weren’t there and deep pockets make a big difference in running any establishment. You know you need the capital.

AS: So were Lincoln and Brewer always connected or did that change over the years?

DH: No way back in the 50s, Lincoln and Brewer were owned by Standard Packaging Corporation. They shut down in 68, 1968, the Lincoln mill shut down, March of 68’ and the Brewer mill shut down. In August of 68, Mr. Torras purchased and started up the Lincoln mill. In October of 68 the citizens of, there was, not really the citizens of Brewer but there was a small group of people who bought bonds and the Eastern Maine Development Corporation helped start up the Brewer mill and then in 69 Canadian corporation bought again with the option to pick up everything at the end of 5 years and they did in fact pick that up. So from 69 and the next 5 years, the Canadian corporation bought out 100% of the bonds that started up the mill.

AS: Ok. But Brewer and Lincoln were not both bought by EB Eddie or ?

DH: No.

AS: Ok.

DH: Oh no, EB Eddie only owned the Brewer mill. Yes.

AS: Ok, and then Joe Torras bought it

DH: Bought it from EB Eddie. No, Joe Torres owned Lincoln in 1968. He bought and started up Lincoln.

AS: Ok.

DH: So he has owned Lincoln right from the beginning and ran that and put in the pulp, you know the saw dust, pulp. I mean he and his people actually manufactured that. They made that machine. They developed that machine.

AS: And they were working out of New York, is that right?

DH: No, Amherst Massachusetts.

AS: Ok.

DH: Yes, that’s where the corporate offices were.

AS: So were you ever a part of the union? I know you worked quite closely with them but as

DH: Well I was the management negotiator for the union, for the company. So no I wasn’t, I was never a union member. I was always a management, manager.

AS: Ok, so you from when you started and worked your way up through you always had a salaried position that was non-union.

DH: Always non union, yes.

AS: And was that pretty typical of the office jobs at Eastern? Were there any exceptions to that?

DH: From 68 on there wasn’t, it was a non union office.

AS: Ok.

DH: Right.

AS: So can you tell me a little bit about the sort of office side of things in terms of gender relations and things like that? Were there predominately women in the offices or more men or a pretty even balance?

DH: Probably a pretty even balance. I don’t recall that it was, it was your typical office, especially manufacturing office. The lower paid jobs were female. The higher paid jobs were male.

AS: Really.

DH: Yes, positively it was like that. It was next to impossible to get a union female.

AS: Really

DH: You know for the early part. Even at the end there weren’t very many. There were you know a few women but no where’s near a 50/50 type thing. You know where population is 50/50, it was no where’s near that and it didn’t do away with [End Track 5, Begin Track 6]

DH: Even as we improved with affirmative action plans, wages did improve but you don’t correct it over night.

AS: Right.

DH: You know, it just doesn’t happen. We did hire female engineers and lab techs and that type of thing, those had always been male.

AS: Really.

DH: Yes.

AS: Until the 70s.

DH: 80s.

AS: Really.

DH: Oh yeah, yes well into the 80s and early 90s. That is one thing that we did improve upon in the 89 and beyond. When I actually became the vice president and I had two human resource managers that were doing the day to day hiring and that type of thing and I no longer had to pay attention to that, I could put in a salaried system, salary evaluation system so that we could identify where we were not meeting affirmative action. Where we had, we actually put in a job evaluation numerical system where we could identify people who were being underpaid and work the system. You just can’t fix it over night. You just you know, but we did and Mr. Torras approved it with no qualms what so ever. When we went and sat down and reviewed all the places that we needed to make adjustments. You know you’d give certain percentages to try to improve upon those types of things.

AS: So when you said initially men had the higher paying jobs and women had lower paying do you mean sort of like the difference between secretarial jobs and management or not even that extreme?

DH: No, it’s yes, that is what I’m saying is basically if your clerks, secretaries and assistants were females and if you were a male, you were an accountant and not an accountant clerk or you were a technician or, and so you were paid higher; even in the non, it was the non exempt. Ok, so you had a certain half of your people that were your managers that were exempt from over time and that type of thing and that was your engineers, your professionals, ok, and your vice presidents. Then with the support staff, if you look through the 80s and 90s, I mean the 70s and 80s, the females would be at the bottom, even of the support staff and the males would be at the top.

AS: Really.

DH: Yes, definitely.

AS: So there was even a hierarchy in terms of like secretarial and assistant and clerk type jobs.

DH: Yes.

AS: Were they doing different things or were they getting paid differently?

DH: Well not a lot, not a lot. They were doing different things. If it was related to production it tended to be paid at a higher rate of pay where as if it was related to record keeping or you know accounting, personnel or purchasing it would be lower rates of pay, versus a production clerk whose keeping track of production records instead of keeping track of personnel records but they’d be paid more versus, yeah, you know it took time to straighten those things around.

AS: Yes.

DH: Not just in our, that wasn’t just our company, you know that was industry wide, not just even industry.

AS: Society wide.

DH: Society wide, that’s right, yes.

AS: So when you started in accounting, did you, does it work the same way as when you bid for a job where you’re not a union person?

DH: No.

AS: So other jobs came up and you, how did that application process happen for you?

DH: You just, I mean when I was in accounting where I was hired, when I went to personnel they actually came to me and said we’re going to add another position and you know, are you interested in doing it? So it was [End Track 6, Begin Track 7]

DH: it was just again, small office. At that point in time, when I went, because I went from accounting to data processing and from data processing up to personnel and I went in the personnel office in 1970 and that was, he knew from talking to me, the manager knew from talking to me that I was bored in data processing. It wasn’t challenging me and I probably wouldn’t have stayed. I would have looked for another job because I was the type of person that had to be busy. I’m just not one to sit around too much so and so that’s why he offered me the job and it worked out. It worked out to quite a career.

AS: Yes, it certainly did. So was each step for you a step up in terms of like pay and benefits?

DH: Yes.

AS: Ok, I was just wondering in terms of like where you went to or you said you worked on some production things for awhile and if that was a step up and then going back to a more clerical position, whether that was sort of a step backwards.

DH: No.

AS: Ok.

DH: The production records I was doing that’s kind of, was the issue. Accounting would take the production records that the paper machines and that the finishing department produced and they had tallied them up and they had done all their record keeping and they kept them in their departments. Well accounting had to have their own records so it was redone in accounting and records were kept. Then they somewhere along the line would compare them all right or it would be, and of course you’d invariably find out that they didn’t always match and then they’d have to find out where the problems were, that type of thing. Just kind of cross the checks, checks and balances.

AS: Ok, can you talk a little bit about being sort of the person that all new hires had to pass through. I mean do you have any stories about you know, I don’t know maybe like women that really wanted to work on the production side of things that maybe you didn’t feel should have or maybe vice versa. It must have been an interesting perspective to be on the hiring end of things during the 70s and 80s when that was changing a little bit.

DH: In the 70s and 80s, it was very difficult to find women who really wanted to work in the mill and could physically do it. I know that people say that we’re all created equal but the good lord really doesn’t agree with us because physically most men are able to lift, push, pull more than most women. There are always exceptions to the rule ok but in generalities it was a true statement. And it was hard to find people that could actually do the work without getting hurt because even, especially like in the 70’s and even the early 80s, we didn’t have the safety procedures and equipment. You know they were being developed and that’s how things evolved and improved but people could get hurt very easily and if you had a team mate who wasn’t physically able to do as much as you, then it was putting too much work on you and there’s you know, it’s putting somebody else at a safety risk.

AS: Right.

DH: So it was a problem. I don’t really remember, I’m sure there were people that applied, that didn’t get hired. I don’t remember ever having any major problems. We did hire people and they did in fact get hurt. They did go out on workers comp. There weren’t a lot of women that worked for us. I mean literally I can think of maybe ten that were with us from the early 80s, maybe not even ten, right straight through with me. Ok, because they would not stay. Now there were some that would come in [End Track 7, Begin Track 8]

DH: and not know how to work with men. That was one issue that made things difficult. Some women who thought to work with men they had to act what they thought would be like a man would want them to work but like, talking rough and tough and not lady like.

AS: Right, that’s interesting.

DH: That’s not what people want. I can think of one woman who actually ended up, she was there when I believe when the mill went down and was a machine operator and she went in and she was of small frame but she was the exception to the rule and she came in and was always a lady and people actually, they resented her initially all right. But when they realized that she was there to work, she had a family and wanted money and she did what she was supposed to do. She didn’t ask anybody to do it and she really worked very well. You know, I’ve actually used her as an example a couple of times with women that didn’t know how to act.

AS: Really.

DH: To say you know you really don’t have to swear and cuss, you know make rude comments but you also don’t have to be dainty either. You know, that’s not what it is all about to be in production. Is not to be dainty but it is you know to be yourself.

AS: Would you feel comfortable telling me the name of that woman that was really exceptional?

DH: No, not on tape because I don’t know. Before we leave, I can give you a list of maybe if somebody might want to, because she might want to be interviewed. Maybe you’ve already interviewed her but yes, she was an excellent employee, yes. And there were some that were good employees and there were some that were good employees that were also funny. But I probably couldn’t tell you things on tape.

AS: You mean funny in how they sort of made themselves fit in?

DH: Yes, each one was individual but to the end it was a male industry. Working, it was paper making is heavy. It’s hot. It’s dirty, you know dusty and greasy and you know its, our mill was an old mill and it was old equipment so that there was a lot of hands on tugging, pushing, pulling, that type of stuff. For millions of dollars you can buy new equipment that could do it manually but we didn’t have millions of dollars.

AS: Right.

DH: Ok, we were an old mill trying to make a go and so it, you know that was the hard part of it.

AS: So did women when they came to the mill tend to apply for primarily like office jobs?

DH: Office, yes. There were, I would say all through the 70s and 80s we used to take applications. We just left them at the gatehouse and they’d make out applications. We did that originally then we started taking applications through the main job service but for you know we’d take applications once a year. We’d hire maybe 15 or 20 people. We’d get 500 applications.

AS: Wow.

DH: How do you choose? It’s just throw them up in the air, grab. I mean you can’t interview 500 people, ok.

AS: Right.

DH: And you literally just had to kind of go on nice job background. You know a good, steady worker or that’s what we were looking for. They were, some of the things that you say these sound discriminatory but they were things that we thought back I can think when I, when we first went in human resource and started to [End Track 8, Begin Track 9]

DH: interview. The personnel manager that I worked for, the first thing he said was don’t hire someone that has a background as a clam digger.

AS: Really.

DH: Not because they’re not a good worker. They’re a hard, hard worker but they’re not accustomed to working 7 to 3, you know 7 days a week. They are accustomed to working real hard, right out straight but on rainy days and things like that they don’t, it’s not, they’re just not used to the regimented routine of doing exactly what you’re told, exactly when you’re told to do it and don’t question it. And the same was true of the people who worked in the woods, ok that if they really enjoy that type of work even though they thought that they would like to get away from that and go into production, they usually didn’t work out in production because they just don’t have, it takes a certain personality to want to do that type of work. And no matter how good, and the pay was good. The pay was good and the benefits were good but you know when you really have to, and the shift work that they had to work you know 7 to 3’s and a couple days off and then 7 3 to 11’s and a couple days off, and then 7 11 to 7’s right in a row and it doesn’t matter that it’s your anniversary, or that your child is having a birthday or you know somebody’s sick, machine needs to run, you have to come in. If you don’t, you’re sticking the person that’s there you know and so there’s a regiment to it that you know isn’t easy to follow. And that was one of the things that the women that tended to apply, tended to be single parents and where do you find daycare 11 to 7 in the 70s and 80s.

AS: Right.

DH: It just, even now it has to be hard and of course now, it’s 12 hour shifts, most of them are.

AS: So was that sort of a you know like you said you don’t want to think about discriminating but that must have been a factor that you had to…

DH: Sure you did. Yes, it definitely was a factor. You know you had to take that into consideration, does the person but in fairness you took it into consideration anyway a person whatever type of work they did. As you interviewed them, if they sounded like someone that was not going to be able to follow the regiments of production.

AS: Right

DH: Then you didn’t hire them. You know and it didn’t matter what kind of, they might have worked in a grocery store. You know but you talk about in interviewing, you talk about your past jobs and you get the person to talk about what they liked about their past jobs, what they didn’t like about their past jobs or if they start talking about you know I didn’t like having to do the same thing every single day or I didn’t like having to do this or that. Then I’m saying ok, I’m going to ask you to do the same thing every single day, ok without and that’s what you’re going to have to do. Then if you weren’t happy there, you’re not going to be happy here.

AS: Right.

DH: Because money doesn’t make it. It really doesn’t make someone be happy at doing a job they don’t like. That would only last for a short amount of time and we were trying to hire for long term.

AS: Right.

DH: It cost a lot to train a person.

AS: Did you have any sense that a lot of the applicants were like single men or did they tend to be family men? Was there any certain stereotype they found?

DH: No, I don’t think so. I think yeah, it was probably quite a mix as far as single and family. We used to kid that we’d hire all singles because it was cheaper but it wasn’t really.

AS: Really.

DH: Yeah, no it really wasn’t. You know your insurance isn’t cheaper and stuff but they only, it doesn’t last.

AS: Right.

DH: A good mix is the way to go.

AS: I’m going to stop just a second and flip the tape over.

DH: Ok. [End Track 9, End CD 1] [Begin CD 2, Begin Track 1] Amy Stevens: Ok, so starting back up again, one thing I sort of wanted to ask you is and I could be just totally pulling this out of the air but did you ever get any sense that there were either you know men or women that came to a place like the mill looking for a potential spouse or anything like that? That’s something that I’ve heard from a couple of people and it just intrigues me like you know I was a women and I figured if I went to work at a mill where there were a lot of men, then I might have a good chance of finding someone.

DH: There probably were some that went there.

AS: I mean I would imagine that in an environment like that a lot of people did end up meeting.

DH: I do not recall very many people getting, there were a couple that did end up getting married.

AS: Really.

DH: Yeah but I was in the [ ], I don’t recall union wise, them getting. There probably were some, yes there probably were a couple that had that type of thing in mind but I don’t think it was predominant. I really don’t but then I have to admit I really didn’t pay attention to that kind of stuff. I was removed from that, you know. When I did the actual hiring because I did the hiring in the, all of the hiring in the 70s and probably into the middle of the 80s, maybe 85 but then I had hired assistants, ok because the job had grown all right, and that’s when they started doing the actual interviewing and hiring and I was more into the contracts and everything so that I stopped. So when I was doing the actual hiring, we hadn’t got into, we hired a few women but I mean not very many and so there were very few and I really think the ones that we did hire, came in for the money. They were, I mean they were accustomed to getting minimum wage you know and they were coming in at 3 and 4 dollars more than minimum wage, at whatever it was way back then. So that was a big drawing card.

AS: Did you in personnel have to deal with like accidents and safety issues? You did. DH I had a safety director so I didn’t go out and actually bandage them. Ok, there was a safety director that worked for me and they, but like I was responsible for making sure that we complied with OSHA and that all the negotiating with the hospitals and the medical personnel to make sure that we had doctors, and nurses and all that, the physicals were done.

AS: Physicals, that’s interesting.

DH: Yes, we did require physicals. There were minimum requirements.

AS: Annually?

DH: Before you were hired.

AS: Before you were hired, ok. DH Yes, you had to pass the physical

AS: And did you, you must have dealt with workers comp and things like that.

DH: Yes.

AS: Do you remember any accidents that sort of stick out in your head from your time working there?

DH: Oh my goodness, there were a number that were devastating.

AS: Really.

DH: We lost one, the first year that I went to work there and I wasn’t in personnel at that time, there was an electrician that was electrocuted. He lost his balance and reached for the wire and he didn’t have his glove on and of course he was supposed to have his gloves on. But there was one man that was severed by a train. He fell as the train was backing and it backed over him.

AS: Oh gosh.

DH: So there’s been some terrible accidents. We had on number two paper machine one of the dryers blew up and of course they’re full of steam and there were two men there that got burnt and were rushed to the hospital, two salary, actually they were salaried supervisors. [End Track 1, Begin Track 2]

DH: They were ok. They ended up, you know but it took them quite awhile to heal. There were some you know that,

AS: Were major accidents like that fairly common in the paper mill?

DH: No

AS: or did it tend to be minimal?

DH: back injuries.

AS: Back injuries.

DH: Back injuries were, yes a major key.

AS: From pushing things.

DH: I can remember one terrible one and that is when we had put in our hair regulation. There was a young man that worked on our rotary cutter, which a long knife that went around in kind of a roll and cutting paper, sheeting paper and our safety regulation at that time was that you couldn’t, you had to have your hair tied back in a ponytail and you had to wear nets to keep it from the machines and he had like the middle of his back, his hair was really beautiful hair and he wore it in a ponytail and he had his hair net on. He was fully within the safety regulations and he leaned over to do something and he went like this and it caught his ponytail at the top of it and it ripped 100% of his hair out of his head.

AS: Oh my gosh.

DH: And it was, there was no blood. It just, it didn’t pull the skin. It literally ripped it out of his head.

AS: Oh my gosh.

DH: And of course they rushed him to the hospital and it was shock. He was ok. He came back to work and all his hair grew back but it grew back curly.

AS: Really.

DH: He had long, straight hair. It grew back curly. I remember that.

AS: Oh my gosh.

DH: We put right then, we negotiated with the union that no one had, because the thing was the ponytail. It caught the top of the ponytail and all the hair was right there.

AS: Right.

DH: If he had had it down

AS: It would have just got a piece.

DH: It would have just caught a piece

AS: Yes.

DH: Ok, so when you think your being safe, you’re not and so at that point in time we required that the hair length be at the ears and couldn’t touch the collar in the back. It had to be short, not ever going to take that chance of having that again and that regulation was in for years. They did, we did allow probably in the 90s, they, union complained and got it changed where they could have long hair.

AS: That’s interesting too because I would have thought something like that would have happened with a woman and it happened to be a man with long hair.

DH: That’s right, yes. They started wearing hats because at least with a hat on, it would grab the hat, not the head.

AS: Right.

DH: Ok, that was better than the hair net. But for years we did have and we had oh my goodness, many, many people that wouldn’t cut their hair. You know and there were grievances. You know you just had to and of course having seen the young man and the trauma he went through because it really even though, I mean that was a trauma.

AS: I can’t imagine.

DH: Well even the personality, he was a single, young man you know dating and everything and now he’s bald. It was just for him it was a personal, emotional thing to go through.

AS: Yes.

DH: Yes, so it really stuck with me so every time I would have a grievance when someone refused to cut their hair and I’m going, if you could have seen what this young man went through, you wouldn’t be complaining about cutting your hair.

AS: Right.

DH: What if it happens? I just didn’t understand it, but anyway.

AS: Yes, I would have thought everybody in the mill would have wanted to cut their hair at that point.

DH: Right, yes.

AS: So you said back injuries were the most common.

DH: Back injuries were probably the most common, cuts. You know, I guess one sad one is a young man died. He was having [End Track 2, Begin Track 3]

DH: stomach problems and went to the emergency room and he said it started when he was pushing a roll so they were looking for a hernia and they were actually, whether he pushed a roll or what, but it didn’t, it wasn’t a hernia. It was actually diverticulitis and his intestines had burst. Yes, he was only 22 so he died because they didn’t find it. They were looking for the wrong thing.

AS: Wow. DH So there’s some sad things that can happen with that many people but thank goodness I probably told you all of the terrible, terrible ones. The back injuries and I suppose finger amputations, getting your hands caught in the machines, things like that.

AS: When something would happen, would folks in the mill sort of pull together a fund or anything like that?

DH: I don’t think so. They really didn’t have to. I mean the person was getting two thirds of their pay and their insurances were all paid you know, they didn’t lose any of that. I think most of the time, I suppose there were work collections that might have been taken up for, I don’t remember, I remember collections being taken up more when people retired.

AS: Oh really.

DH: Big parties, and things like that when someone retired they’d you know their crew would bring in all kinds of food and their department would have a big going away type party.

AS: You mentioned that human resources did picnics and parties so was that a fairly common thing?

DH: It was, one of my favorite parties was our retirement party that we had up until, that did stop in probably 90. I think we did it in 89 but we had a retirement party where every one of our retirees and their spouse was invited back once a year and their managers. So the vice presidents and the managers went and then that years retirees were honored and the past retirees came to the retirement party.

AS: Oh, that’s nice.

DH: We used to have like Jeff’s catering. It used to be at Pilot’s grill and the last few years we did it at Jeff’s catering, but way back we had a band or a DJ, but mostly we had a band. In the 70s and early 80s we’d hire a band and dance all night practically. That was a lot of fun but then as you grew because the group kept, the more people that retired. It kept growing and growing. It got a little bit too expensive so we had to cut back on the band. Yes, but it was nice to have and there are albums around for every single year and we’d bring the albums that have them and so you’d start, especially us that were there all the time. You’d see yourself age.

AS: Oh gosh.

DH: You’d go from the 1975 party up to the 1990 party.

AS: Yes I think we have some of those albums actually.

DH: Yes, you probably do, yes.

AS: That the city hall gave us that they had taken out of the mill. They are pretty interesting, like you say.

DH: Yes.

AS: Did you ever have to deal with like sexual harassment or inequality issues in human resources?

DH: Oh yes, yes. They were positively an issue. Yes, that’s you don’t get men and women anywhere that you don’t have something happen especially with 3, 4, 500 people.

AS: Now would you find that those tended to be in the production side or in the office as well?

DH: Mostly production. We didn’t have, yes I can only think of a couple that were in the office and they were in very later years, very you know 2000. I don’t recall any in the earlier years. [End Track 3, Begin Track 4]

AS: What would be the typical process that you’d go through for something like that? Would you have to sit down with both parties?

DH: Yes, you sit down. It wouldn’t be any different than any other type of a complaint. You sat down with all the parties involved and any one around them and try to find out what happened, why it happened and you know you obviously go to the rules and regulations, the laws to see what had been violated. And then you, there have been people terminated. There have been people that were just written up. It wasn’t a fun process.

AS: No. I wouldn’t think so.

DH: No, it’s not because it’s almost never cut and dry. Once in awhile you’ll have a blatant just I mean there was no question what so ever. It was just total disregard but usually there was, you know give and take to a certain and then it got out of bounds. Ok, it went too far and too far is perception, ok. Yes, so it’s not an easy thing and that was not, that was probably one of my least favorite things to do is that type of stuff.

AS: Did you ever have cases where men would file for sexual harassment or was it all women?

DH: Women mostly. Yes, I don’t recall any, I don’t recall any men filing.

AS: Just curious.

DH: Yeah right, with that many men you’d think

AS: You never know.

DH: Yeah, no I don’t recall any.

AS: Now what about issues of like child care and maternity leave and things like that? Did those fall under human resources?

DH: Yes. Childcare I don’t recall having any. I mean we weren’t involved. You know, it wasn’t, childcare maybe, it might have become a reason for absenteeism, ok and so we would have worked with someone trying to find out what the problem was but, or how to solve it. What was the other one? My mind went blank.

AS: Maternity leave.

DH: Maternity leave was, I mean that was cut and dry. That was one we only had, I don’t, we only had two or three

AS: Oh really.

DH: Yeah, we really didn’t have very many production workers that actually ended up having to go out on maternity leave but I mean that was easy. According to the job the person did, the doctor told them at what point they needed to get done and we worked with them. We made sure the doctor had job descriptions and that type of thing and they just went out on disability. That was an easy, we never had any problems that way. It just wasn’t an issue salary wise or production wise.

AS: So they would still be compensated while they were out on maternity leave?

DH: Yes, it was disability. Yes, they were physically unable to do their job, yeah and that was their reason for going out. So, yes, it wasn’t an issue.

AS: Was that any different with office women?

DH: Nope.

AS: No.

DH: Nope, same, of course it was, office women usually could work longer because they didn’t have the heavy, physical work.

AS: Right.

DH: But even so there were a couple that you know because they had more complications in their pregnancy, they had to take more time off and it really is your doctor that determined that. And that probably, having me as a woman in human resource, I probably was more emphatic with the company as to how we’re going to handle these things.

AS: Right. I was thinking that must have been a benefit.

DH: Yes, you know it and I think with affirmative action and getting job compensation and getting it improved, I’m sure that the fact that I was a female had a bearing on us improving on the wages. You know and not discriminating but it also had a bearing on, with the federal government, the affirmative action; we were a federal contractor because we sold to the government printing office so we were under the office of federal contract compliance and we were audited once in 1975 and then every five years after that and [End Track 4, Begin Track 5]

DH: that was an experience because we’ve had auditors come up and they go through all your hiring records. You have to prove why you hired who you hired and why you didn’t hire some of the other ones.

AS: Wow.

DH: You know, things like that. But I can remember in the early 80s, there was you know one because we didn’t have very many females and I just said we don’t have any applications. We didn’t have female, we couldn’t get female’s to apply because they didn’t want to work in the mill at that point in time and I said, you know they said well we can get them in New York and one I thought that was a stupid thing to say to me. I’m not in New York. I’m in Brewer, Maine and you know so I just looked at him and said well, if you can get them to move up from New York, I’d be glad to interview them and I’m sure probably had a man said that to them they would have been mad but a woman saying it to them, I got away with it. But it was, I mean things like that that were kind of ridiculous. You know you can’t change the world.

AS: Right.

DH: We’re not all the same.

AS: Interesting.

DH: Yes. We always passed our affirmative action reviews so I guess we did ok.

AS: Was there a big difference between being an office person and a mill person? I mean was there a big gap in between those two sides of the mill?

DH: I guess I don’t know how

AS: Like would office and production folks intermingle much?

DH: Not a lot, not a lot. I suppose according to how close you were, the production people didn’t come to the main office very frequently unless it was for personnel or payroll related issues.

AS: Ok

DH: All right, so that they tended to, they didn’t come to visit all right, so that you had no contact. I’m sure there were people that worked in the office that didn’t know one single production worker.

AS: Really.

DH: Ok. Now if you worked in the mill in the staff support positions then there was more contact and interaction you know with production workers.

AS: So some office folks would actually be on the production side much more?

DH: Yes, they’d be out working.

AS: Ok.

DH: Yes, in the scheduling departments and the production departments and in keeping, record keeping and the stores you know where salaried workers were in the store but they were actually out working with the maintenance people because that’s what they were ordering parts and things like that. Customer service was not in the main office, it was on the top floor out in the mill so they walked through the mill. They talked but they didn’t have, customer service and sales didn’t have a lot to do with the production workers. You know you just, it’s like any job I’m sure there are people at the University that you don’t have anything to do with, don’t even know, as huge as that is, you know.

AS: Right.

DH: You don’t even know. You deal with the people you’re working with every day.

AS: Would you be able to sort of estimate how many production staff versus how many office and support staff, like at the mills peak?

DH: People, 75% were production, union workers and 25% were salaried, non union workers.

AS: Ok, and are we talking like around 500 people total.

DH: Yes, 450.

AS: Ok.

DH: Yes, about 450 is what Brewer stayed, oh goodness until the 90s, late 90s, yes, late 90s. It was right around there and yes it would be the very late 90s.You know it might have been a little bit below, a little bit above but 450 is about where it ran.

AS: And any idea about how many women out of that 450?

DH: I’ve forgotten. I have forgotten. 50% of the salaried workers were female I would say about and maybe even a little higher than that. But it would have been weighted to the bottom.

AS: Right.

DH: Even at the end.

AS: Wow.

DH: It would have been weighted at the bottom. Yes [End Track 5, Begin Track 6]

AS: Did the benefits and salary ever balance out while you were there? I mean were men and women paid equally for doing the same job?

DH: Yes.

AS: It’s just the fact that women tended to be at the bottom rungs.

DH: That’s right. Yes, and it was changing. I mean it had started to change but it still was society wise, you know personnel and accounting and purchasing, you’re going to find, I think in the state is going to be heavily female.

AS: Were there any other women with management positions like yourself? I mean, you were pretty high up there.

DH: I was the only female vice president. Sales, we had a few in sales, top sales positions in the Amherst office.

AS: But in terms of like inside Eastern either the offices or production, no other women in supervisory roles for the most part?

DH: No they were in, I’m trying to think, the customer service manager was female. My gosh, I’ve forgotten. You know I worked closely with the administrative assistant who worked directly for the president or the general manager. She and I were very close. She wasn’t a manager but she was a high confidential person, ok. Where there wasn’t anything, she worked for Mr. Torras and for the general manager and there was nothing that she didn’t know. You know she did a lot of, she did some of my typing and that type of thing and I would assume you’ve spoken with her. Lois Andrews.

AS: Yes.

DH: Yes, she was

AS: She was right up there.

DH: She was right up there.

AS: And she’s another name that people mention a lot; you and Lois.

DH: It’s like I have to, I’ve forgotten. I need to see a personnel chart.

AS: Yes.

DH: Remind myself.

AS: Oh that’s fine. Now what about, I’m going to maybe get a little bit more personal here, did you get married and have children while you were working at the mill?

DH: No.

AS: No.

DH: I got married.

AS: Oh you did.

DH: But I didn’t have children.

AS: Ok.

DH: Yes.

AS: Was it somebody that worked at the mill or?

DH: Yes, my husband was the manager of finishing and shipping.

AS: Oh really.

DH: Yes, in fact when we decided to get married I went to Mr. Hamilton and said this could be a conflict of interest because as the human resource manager, you basically had to you know I was responsible for grievances and that type of thing and the department managers you know the grievant would come in and say, well they did something wrong and sometimes they did. It wasn’t always the union person that was wrong, ok.

AS: Right.

DH: Management does do things wrong sometimes and the so conflict was the fact are you as a wife going to be able to say you did it wrong.

AS: That’s interesting. What was his reply to that?

DH: No he said, because I offered to get done.

AS: Really.

DH: Yes, in order to, we had talked, my husband and I had talked about it and we both felt that it would not, our personalities would not allow it. We’re both very strong personalities and we felt it would not conflict and he agreed. The president said no, I do not want you to get done. We’ll deal with it. If it becomes an issue then we may have to deal with it then but, and I don’t think it did. There were probably a few times when people complained and maybe behind your back they complained more than I know but I didn’t [End Track 6, Begin Track 7]

DH: we both were very strong in what we believed in. If I felt he was wrong then that was it.

AS: That must have been…

DH: And working together, it’s not like you were working, he was in the mill. I was in the office. I went weeks on end and didn’t see him.

AS: Really.

DH: Yeah, you know and even if we did and there were times we totally disagreed and would, you know he was not happy with my decision or I was not happy with his decision but we were the type that when we go home, that was at work. That’s the other people.

AS: Right.

DH: Ok.

AS: That’s good.

DH: It might have been a quiet dinner but it never affected, yeah it never affected anything.

AS: Wow, that’s pretty unique. That must have been

DH: Yeah, it’s, I probably wouldn’t recommend it but

AS: But it worked for you.

DH: But it worked for us and so we’re still best friends.

AS: That’s great. Do you mind if I ask how you met while you were there? Just working together?

DH: Just working together. We had worked together, well for, well since I had been there. He got a divorce and I got a divorce so we were both single.

AS: Oh really.

DH: Yes, we were both divorced and it was, we actually went to dinner one time or lunch, a business lunch just the two of us but we were talking about some contract issues that we were working on and that going back we said, admitted to each other that we were more than just friends and then we started dating, seeing each other quietly. And that’s when we finally just said, you know we’ve been best friends for, and we had. We’d always gravitated to each other through all the years and never and really just as co-workers but good co-workers, better, get along better with some than others. So we just finally admitted that we were more than just friends.

AS: That’s great. You said you sort of kept it quiet for a while, did you feel like people would not appreciate your situation?

DH: Yeah, well yeah it was. You know it was bound to be an issue. You know the two positions, human resource does need to be separate from so it isn’t an ideal situation.

AS: Now what did he do exactly?

DH: He managed the finishing and the shipping department.

AS: Ok.

DH: Ok. Yeah, where they cut the paper and then shipped it out.

AS: So you two worked together on a lot of

DH: Well just contract issues

AS: Contract issues.

DH: I mean just, yes, just you know or injuries, that type of thing, scheduling because we did the scheduling for his department. You know he’d tell us what machines he wanted run, what shifts but we actually scheduled the people. I mean I didn’t, well I did for awhile but then somebody in my department did the actual scheduling.

AS: Right.

DH: So it was, our contact wasn’t everyday. It would be just as far as grievances and that type of thing or like I said an injury, or safety meetings and that type of thing.

AS: But because he oversaw a large crew I would say

DH: Right.

AS: He was involved in a lot of those.

DH: Yes but he, again he personally didn’t attend every one of them. It was his supervisors because he had shift supervisors and they are the ones that actually dealt with the people.

AS: Right.

DH: Day to day. I mean he did too.

AS: Ok. Let’s see, a couple of just random questions did you have a nickname or anything at the mill? Or did you know people who had nicknames?

DH: The only nickname that I ever was told that I had been called was the Iron Lady.

AS: Really.

DH: And aside from that I don’t know. God only knows what they called me.

AS: Was that, did that have like strength connotation or was that…

DH: I was probably very strong willed. When I said something, I expected it to be done and it wasn’t to be questioned very often because most, when you’re dealing with contracts [End Track 7, Begin Track 8]

DH: it’s right there in black and white. What’s your issue?

AS: Right.

DH: What are you questioning me for? You know it’s, and so and I did try to stay impartial so that it kept you kind of in the back ground but whatever the reason, yeah. But I still I think I have a lot of friends, a lot of people that I worked with so I guess I didn’t do too badly.

AS: Well I would take it as a compliment so, it’s good to be a strong woman. What about like practical jokes or pranks or anything like that in your area?

DH: There were lots of, it was continuous. Practical jokes were things that went on all the time. I wish I could remember some. I am not a practical joker so usually I wouldn’t have been involved in that type of thing but it was a relaxed atmosphere most of the time. People really did enjoy working there in most instances and it was repetitious. You know paper machines, if the machine was running good

AS: You didn’t have to worry.

DH: They didn’t do anything. They were just sitting there looking at it you know well they kidded with each other and they horsed around you know and they did, I think that if you were to talk to most people there they would say, the long term people that they enjoyed most of it. You know, it has its bad points but it mostly had good points. Yes, and it was a fun place to work.

AS: Did that ever, you know a practical joke, did that ever come back to human resources as getting out of hand?

DH: I’m sure. I’m sure. I can’t think of one instance but yes as practical jokes go, remember, well you wouldn’t but years ago they had streaking.

AS: Oh yeah, I heard about that.

DH: Yes, there was one gentleman that used to streak through the mill.

AS: Oh, no kidding.

DH: There were some that were things that just, things that went on that you just couldn’t even, I couldn’t repeat that you know even horsing around between the men and the women. They did, not a lot but there was a lot of camaraderie, even between departments you know where they’d get back at one another. But again, those are things that I, I’m sure I’ve heard of some. My husband could probably tell you more because he was out in the mill. You know that where I was the disciplinarian of the mill, they kept it away from me.

AS: Yes, yes.

DH: Don’t let her know.

AS: Yes.

DH: Yes, so that I really didn’t get in on as many yes until after the fact, way after the fact. Yes but…

AS: I’ve heard from a couple of men and women that there was a time there where there was a lot of like pornography around the mill. I wonder if that was ever a problem that was brought to human resources.

DH: Yes, calendars oh goodness. We went through an awful issue with taking personal property and do I have a right and you know that type of thing. Where you know we had to make people take things down.

AS: Because it upset other workers?

DH: Yes, it was inappropriate and it wasn’t just women that were upset. There are things that just aren’t acceptable and are unnecessary in a production, you know.

AS: Did that go, sort of diminish over time? Was there less problems relating to that sort of thing? [End Track 8 Begin Track 9]

DH: Yeah, I suppose we cleaned it up to the point where we became very firm that you couldn’t have girly calendars and men calendars and that type of thing. So that it diminished after awhile but it takes a long, long, time

AS: Just like anything.

DH: Yes and they always crop up, you know in a back corner somewhere

AS: Yeah.

DH: They were an issue.

AS: Were there actually men calendars? That’s something that I hadn’t heard of.

DH: Yes.

AS: Well there. A little give and take there.

DH: Yes, right.

AS: Ok, that’s interesting.

DH: Yes, there was one lady that said she had a right to have hers, they could have there’s.

AS: Well there. Oh my gosh. Let’s see, I think we’ve touched on a lot of my questions. Do you feel overall that women interacting with each other was a positive thing? Was there any cattiness or competitiveness or gossip or anything like that?

DH: Positively.

AS: Really.

DH: Positively, yes there was. Too many women together could get out of hand, just as you were better off I think, too many of anything is too much I guess and there’s always competition in departments and between departments. You know so that you’d have you know a couple of people that might complain about the other department getting away with this or that because they were different, different requirements. Some jobs allow flexibility, other ones don’t. They require a more rigid system. You know just from the output, the input and the output of what’s going on. But yes, they could be catty.

AS: Yeah. Would there ever be instances that you would have to deal with of almost like harassment within a group of women, not between men and women but…

DH: Yes, there was that I couldn’t even allow to work together.

AS: Really.

DH: Yes, and it was over a he said, she said, he said, she said type of issue and it got to a point and neither one of them you know they felt that I was favoring the other one.

AS: Gosh.

DH: Ok, so that you had to try to keep the two separate and thank goodness one of them was a little less difficult so that she really made it work, one totally was never accepted it at all.

AS: So how would you deal with something like that? Would you actually have to schedule them to work different hours or keep them in different areas?

DH: Different departments, different, yes. Keep them in separate departments and talked to the managers and made sure that you keep them separate.

AS: I think if I was in your role, I would have felt like kind of

DH: baby sitter

AS: Yes or I was going to say like the matriarch that’s trying to hold everything together.

DH: That’s right.

AS: So wow, you really had a lot to deal with over there.

DH: Actually it was. It was and now that I’m retired I say I’ve had my lifetime of stress already, I want no more and I find myself totally intolerant to any disagreements. I just don’t, I don’t put up with them. I don’t stay in the situation at all.

AS: Yeah.

DH: It’s all over. 33 years was enough.

AS: Oh yes, now I just have a couple of questions left. I’ve got to stop my tape real quick.

DH: Ok. [End Track 9, End CD 1 Side 2] [Begin CD 2 Tape 2, Begin Track 1] Amy Stevens: This is tape 2 of the interview with Donna Holland from Eastern Fine Paper. I just wanted to ask you a little bit about how things sort of unraveled and you know did you work up to the very end or had you retired before the mill closed? Donna Holland: I retired before the mill closed. I worked until 02’ I think and then I worked on a consulting basis from then on until the closure of the mill.

AS: Oh really.

DH: And I managed during that time, I managed the pension plans. That was the key issue, was to make sure that the pension plans were invested properly and taken care of properly. I reported only to Joe Torres then. I didn’t have anything to do with the mill. All of the duties were totally separate and aside from a consulting basis.

AS: Were you still being paid as a consultant?

DH: As a consultant, yes; not as an employee.

AS: Ok, so did you choose to retire in 02?

DH: Yes, my husband retired in April of 01 and he wanted me to get done and I needed to close some things out and everything so that, yes.

AS: Great. Did you see sort of anything happening in your last years there that lead you to believe the mill would be closed in another year or two?

DH: Sure. I think everybody did.

AS: Really.

DH: Yes, everybody knew what was going down, I think from the year 2000 on.

AS: Really.

DH: Yes, you were fighting. You were hoping. You were praying but it was getting worse, and worse and worse. We kept cutting back, and cutting back, and cutting back and trying to make improvements but there’s only so much you can do and yeah, I think the inevitable was there. It just again, like I said you keep praying that something’s going to give but you never saw it and there was no surprise what so ever.

AS: What types of things were telling you that something was wrong?

DH: Orders, orders

AS: A lack of orders.

DH: Lack of orders and yeah you know, I mean prices Price’s were way down, orders were down, profits were down. You can’t run a mill if you don’t, it’s very capital intensive. You have to have capital to run a paper mill.

AS: Why is it that the orders were down like competition or?

DH: Competition, competition, out and mostly foreign competition, yes. The markets were changing. It’s just prices were high. Everything was going up except for the price of the paper. Sales were going down and costs were going up. That just can’t continue so

AS: Right. Do you think that there were any key decisions that the owners or the managers made that really affected the outcome or was it inevitable?

DH: I think it was inevitable. I suppose there were decisions, you know hindsight every manager will tell you that some of the work that they did on number two paper machine didn’t work out as good as they thought it was going to. It’s easy to second guess in hindsight.

AS: Certainly.

DH: All the decisions that were made were made because they thought it was the right thing to do and the markets that they were looking into they were trying to find a niche that was going to allow them to continue and they didn’t pan out.

AS: So their former niche for specialty paper was sort of….

DH: Well had gone away by computers, you know the certificate brands, the cotton fibers. People just don’t use it the way they used to and that went away. That market went away and we didn’t find something to replace it [End Track 1, Begin Track 2]

AS: Do you keep in touch with many folks from the mill?

DH: We did originally but there’s a few that we call but we winter in Texas and then we travel in the summer time so we really haven’t been around and you know, so you still look for people in grocery stores and in the malls and things like that; keep running into someone from the mill too see what’s going on. We still have you know some close friends that we stay in contact with.

AS: Anybody that was laid off?

DH: No, most of our friends are in our situation. They’re retired. They retired I’ve talked to a few that have been laid off. They’re most working. I have a niece that was in the mill, she left and went to Bangor Savings Bank and she’s doing fine. So my, the people that worked for me in human resource, Anne Robinson is, she and her husband owned Holden Family RV and then they sold that. I guess they’re semi-retired and working in a campground now but they’ve done, and Gene was one of the people that worked at the mill for a long time. Nicole Decesere, I don’t know have you talked to her? She’s with Lenforter. She was in human resource for quite a few years and she is doing quite well with Lenforter.

AS: Is that Vince Decesere’s daughter?

DH: Yes.

AS: Ok, yes I talked with him but not her.

DH: Oh is that right. She’d be a good one to talk to. Yes she’s married now. I forget her maiden name, her married name.

AS: So do you have a sense overall that people have moved on?

DH: Most of the people I’ve talked to have moved on. Yes.

AS: Do you feel like the mill contributed to the community in any way while it was up and running?

DH: I know it did. There are people, the last couple of years that felt that the mill wasn’t helping the community, wasn’t as active but you can’t have a 16 million dollar pay roll that doesn’t help the community.

AS: Right.

DH: It just you know because it’s adding beyond that, way beyond that so it added a lot to the community. We used to be very, very active. The last couple of years there was less community activity but when I was in human resource, we were very active in the United Way, the March of Dimes. We did all the walk-a-thons and that type of thing. We had the union and the company worked really well together running United Way campaign. The union did their own campaign. Salary workers didn’t, we did our salary workers. The union employees would solicit union employees and we did an excellent job and they were taking cutbacks, things they just, you know the last few years it didn’t happen but the majority of the life of the union, of the mill it was very supportive of the community.

AS: Were there any mill groups of people that would either be on like bowling teams or sports teams or you know you can, like quilting clubs or anything like that?

DH: Yes, we supported basketball. We had a basketball team. We had a softball team.

AS: The mill did? So were they like school children that you sponsored or were they actually workers from the mill?

DH: Workers from the mill. We sponsored soap box derby, two cars. The union sponsored one and the mill sponsored one. We used to have a bowling team but that lasted, that’s been a long time since we had that but the softball team and the basketball team was right up toward the end.

AS: Would they play teams from other mills?

DH: No, from the Brewer League, the Brewer Rec.

AS: Ok.

DH: Yes they’d be in that.

AS: Ok. [End Track 2, Begin Track 3]

DH: Golfing. I know Mary Alder, she, we used to have a golfing team but again I don’t know when they stopped. You know it probably hasn’t been in the last five years. What other teams? Because we did do, we had like four or five years we had company picnics.

AS: Oh really.

DH: Yes, where we, I mean they worked so hard. Nicole could tell you about that. She worked on it and it was to get families together to have you know a get-together We had some right on the mill, right in the mill yard where we’d have cookouts, three, or four, or five big type things and the whole mill and they’d sub for each other in the mill so the guys could come out and get something to eat. Then they’d have to go back.

AS: Oh nice.

DH: Yes, so there were a lot of things like that that went on. A couple of open houses throughout my career that we did, major, major open houses. Let me see, what other things did we do….

AS: Was there ever a band associated with the mill or anything, musicians or?

DH: I don’t recall that.

AS: How about like recipe swapping or knitting or any crafts like that?

DH: No, not that I recall. Nothing like that, again that would be more a female thing versus, yeah.

AS: Within the office workers did that ever happen?

DH: No, not that I, the office workers I don’t recall truthfully had a lot of get-togethers. It was us doing work and getting, pulling the production crews in. I don’t remember doing anything other than that.

AS: Well one big sort of final question to wrap everything up, was there something different about being a woman in your position in Eastern or in the paper industry in general and if so what would you say was different about being a woman in your role?

DH: I suppose it was different but I’ve never been anything else so I just, I didn’t perceive it that way. I don’t think that I had, I don’t think I had any trouble doing my job. I don’t think that I got any less support. I never perceived that I did and it didn’t, when I went to like state wide groups that I belonged to for human resource; there was one other female from the Augusta mill and she and I were really the only two females but nobody cared, I mean we were there to talk about an issue and it didn’t have anything to do with male or female type thing.

AS: Right.

DH: Yeah so it really didn’t, and of course later on in the 80s and 90s lots more females got into human resource and there were a lot very active. So I don’t think it was an issue to me. I didn’t let it be an issue and so it wasn’t. I guess that’s…

AS: Great.

DH: You know, if I didn’t get support I didn’t notice it.

AS: Well is there anything you would like to add that I haven’t asked you about?

DH: No I can’t think of anything. I wish you luck on this project.

AS: Well thank you very much and thanks for talking with me.

DH: Ok.

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