Interviewee: Terry Pierson Interviewer: Pauleena MacDougall and Amy Stevens July 14th, 2006 Woman Papermakers

Pauleena MacDougall: Ok, lets see we are in the library at the Maine Folklife Center. I’m talking with Terry Pierson. This is Pauleena MacDougall and it’s July 14th, 2006. Amy Stevens is here and we’re going to talk to Terry about her career in paper making.

PM: Terry you mentioned that you had gone to the school here at the University of Maine, could you tell us a little bit about that?

Terry Pierson: Yes, actually it was great. I came back to school after being out of high school about ten years. Took all commercial courses in high school, my guidance counselors used to tell me, Terry you’ll make a good secretary some day and ended up divorced with two children and decided to come back to school. I was waitressing so I came back through the onward program because I had never taken SAT’s or any kind of college classes, never had algebra or chemistry and got in the onward program and spent about three semesters in there getting able to get into college and my friend was a chemical engineering major and my sister was up here as a chemistry major and she was graduating in the next few years in Chem.-E. She persuaded my sister and I to both go into chemical engineering because of the jobs that were available in the paper industry. We were both single women with kids and single parents, and so got into the chemical engineering program, absolutely loved it. Was one of, of the 35 people I graduated with, it was an unusual class of half women, which is unusual for chemical engineering and half of those women were non-traditional students that had come back to school or just started college. So we had a great four years in that program. I loved it, loved all my professors and keep in contact with everybody regularly and went into the paper industry. I actually co-op’d at Champion paper down in Bucksport and was one of the first, actually had the first job in our class.

PM: What year did you graduate?

TP: 92.

PM: 1992 and you mentioned the co-op program, that’s something that the chemical engineering department does here for students. They place them in industry.

TP: Yes, they put you out mostly in the paper industry. It’s through the pulp and paper foundation or program up there where you get placed in a mill a couple of summers and they also have all their classes through the summer months so that who ever’s not in co-op can go to school because you miss a semester when you co-op so you would work at a mill 2 semesters. I worked at Champion, they offered me a job my second term interning there because I saved them about a million dollars a year as a co-op, but you know I had an advantage, I’d already been out in the workforce for ten years; had managed several businesses so I always tell people anyone can be an engineer. It’s a myth that it’s hard because I did it and I never had algebra or chemistry until I was 27 years old so you know, you have to let go of those old worries and myths that are out there that say you know, you can’t do this because you can do anything you want to do and I may not have graduated top of my class but I did very well. I was like 3.2 when I graduated but I’ll tell you, it’s more about common sense and being able to think out of the box than it is you know towing that line of knowing all the different equations and calculations out of your head because that doesn’t do you any good out in the real world.

PM: That’s very interesting to hear you say. So you weren’t scared by the math and science.

TP: No I luckily enough, you know even though I never had it in high school onward had a great math teacher. God, I wish I could remember her name because I’m hoping she’s still there. No, older woman, Vern Stern

PM: Vern Stern.

TP: Oh my gosh, that woman is the reason I’m an engineer. She loved me too because not many onward students would go into the sciences. A lot of them I think were, I mean again you were older person coming back with not a lot of background in the math and sciences but my professors still remember me. I just went up there like one of the Pierson’s is back because my sister and I were there at the same time. So you know I did well in algebra. I skipped over a couple of classes because I tested out of them and I ended up help tutoring it through the onward program for math and it just made sense. I have a very logical mind. I was always good with numbers anyway and it’s more just letting it just figure out the pattern, that’s all it is and not being afraid of it so and I’ve never been afraid of too much in my life.

PM: That’s great, now did you run into any difficulties while you were here at the University about being you know a gender issue in terms of being a student in the engineering department.

TP: Not here at the University at all. I mean this was probably one of the best campus’s but it may have been I just never felt it either being in a class that there were so many women. We were very close all of us. Again, my sister and I were part of the class. My best friend was two years ahead of me in that same program and so I never felt it here at all.

PM: So you had a lot of support.

TP: A lot of support. I mean I never had any issues with that at all here.

PM: How about during the co-op times? TP: No, because you don’t really see the real picture, ok when you’re a co-op you’re doing all the little things that, oh you’re just so happy to do because you know, you’re out there in your field working and oh this is great and you know you don’t [End Track 4, Begin Track 5]

TP: notice as much and I did a little bit because I was older but no, it was more just yeah, this is great. They’re paying me good money and I’m going to see another year out and I’m going to be making money, benefits, you know it’s just you get all wrapped up in that more than what’s really going on here. They don’t let you see it either. You know they’re not showing you the real progression of women or even their leadership styles and what they really want in a person. They gloss over all that, and just you know, tell you what the punch line is for the day, you know so you don’t see any of that when you’re interning.

PM: So did you take the job with Champion that they offered you?

TP: Yes I did.

PM: And how long were you there?

TP: I was with them in Bucksport for six years.

PM: Ok, so tell me about that.

TP: It was great. I mean I definitely enjoyed working there. It was a place were I, most of the people on the floor and in the production area’s I grew up with and went to high school with so it was a very good work environment and the type of person, and you’re in management for the most part when you go into these positions but the type of leader or person I am is, I’m a very good listener but I just don’t listen to listen, I tend to listen to really what they’re saying, the perspective, the ideas and as a leader women I think in general bring more, I mean I’m very open minded, flexible and I love taking a risk. Ok, I mean I took a risk going back to school. I’ve taken lots of risks in my life and I’ve never been afraid to do that so and I’m very sociable. I’m able to, I sometimes would go into a meeting and may have one notion of how things should be but I’m able to listen and see all the ideas and whether its my point of view or the groups point of view, at the end it’s the best point of view that really should come through and working with men, who I love men. You know people get on me sometimes because I tend to be a little vocal about you know a lot of situations that women have to deal with in the work environment, dealing with men and their attitudes and you know I love men but you know their whole way of running a situation is they have a point of view and well they’ll listen but they don’t, they won’t listen and persuade. They listen and want you to be submissive because they’re the leader. Ok, because they’re the one in charge and a lot of people were afraid of that. I was never afraid of that. I mean the reason I made moves in my career in the different mills, I worked at three different mills, and eventually left the paper industry was because I thought there would be differences in moving out west because it was more progressive but there isn’t. You know, men are men and unfortunately I don’t think it’s a lot of their fault. I think it’s more what they’ve learned through the years on how to react in a situation where they’re the leader. Ok, and I was very threatening to them because I had, one of my leadership styles was we were losing pulp out of a big pulp, as big as this room full of pulp, they let it overflow all night we’d lose about 100,000 dollars a month down the sewers which they can use in the machines to make paper. And so all I did was go down to the stock prep department, went in to the operators both and said you know hey you keep an eye on your levels and you don’t let them over flow all night, I’ll make you whatever kind of pie you want. Within two months, we reduced overflows, this is during my internship. I reduced overflows and saved the mill over a million dollars a year. Well that’s when they offered me a job and my boss says to me, the head of the technical department, Mark Hunter, you know you know Terry you may not have used, I tend to go away from the rules and do you know what I think may work more than have to follow this rigid solution pattern; you know all written out and detailed. He said you may not always do what I would do. He said but you sure get the job done and in the end that’s really the key and I think I threaten a lot of people and a lot of women do in their style of being able to see the whole picture and understand what’s going on and listen to other people’s ideas.

PM: And using some people skills.

TP: I have good people, I mean the reason I had the first job, not only for my internship but I interview, I mean I had actually three job offers. I interview very well because I’m comfortable with who I am and a lot of that comes from going to college later in life. I actually promote kids waiting a few years and really knowing what they want to do you know before they go to college because it’s a big step and it’s a lot of money and a lot of kids I went to school with didn’t know where they were going, you know.

PM: Let me go back to when you started at Champion, what was your job there? What were you expected to do and what was your job title?

TP: When you start at any mill as a new chemical engineer, process engineer you go into a program called, it’s a rotation where you go through all the different departments of the paper mill, or paper company you know the coating plant, the pulp mill, the stock prep area and the paper machines are last. [End Track 5, Begin Track 6]

TP: You spend like six months to a year on each one of those stations and then you basically get moved out into an area as a foreman. That’s usually the next step or superintendent over a department and that was what you did and that’s what I did. I mean I was there six years and I eventually was a foreman in the coating area and then a superintendent in that area which the coating area you see was safe because they consider that the kitchen. Ok, my best friend who worked there she was the superintendent of that department and I was the process engineer for a couple of years and then I moved into a foreman slot but one of the women there, the woman I talked about in my email that she, I love her to death but she instead of staying who she was when she came into that mill. We hired her a couple of years after I was there, she felt she had to just be like one of the guys. You know and not use her real insight on how she could be, she would be just so stubborn about maintaining her ideas and what she wanted and it was very, it was hard. You know who it’s hard on is the people you work with because these guys out on the floor, they’re not stupid. They’ve been here for years. They see us come and go. Ok, I mean people like us, ok all the time. We’re just one of those people out of the technical department. So you know to really get confidence in what you can do on a job, it’s getting their confidence. That you really believe that they know what they’re doing. You know and you’re not just some wet behind the ears kid out of school that thinks they know everything because they have a degree and she would never want to work in the coating plant. And me, I loved it because we put in a three million dollar new coating plant. The experience I got from that was great. I never looked at anything well they’re putting me there because I’m a woman. I looked at it as a challenge and said I’m going to do the best job I can, develop new starch paste for them in these great big starch cookers that would rumble so hard you’d shack the floor up on the control panel. So I mean you know you have to learn to, I never looked at it as a bad thing. Well now unfortunately I’ve been away for 11, 12 years from that mill, she’s now in the coating plant as superintendent. I feel bad for her you know and that’s the basic way that most new engineers will go into a job is you start off and go through all the departments and learn it and get your expertise and you know and they determine where you’ll go from there.

PM: I’m not sure I understood what you meant when you said you felt bad for her. Do you feel that that’s not where she should be or she could have done better?

TP: Oh not at all. I feel bad because she may be unhappy.

PM: Oh I see, because she didn’t want to be in the coating.

TP: Right because she didn’t want to be there and to me the most important part of life is being happy. You know, not what you do and how much money you make and that’s what I feel bad about is not, no I mean I just feel bad because she’s probably unhappy about being there and was afraid to say anything because she won’t take that risk.

PM: Yeah I see.

TP: She’s been there 15 or more years.

PM: So you left champion and where did you go and why?

TP: I decided that you know I could just see the stone walling on women above me and I just went and there were a lot of women at that mill so there shouldn’t have been an issue at all and so I went to the…

PM: Tell me a little bit more about the stone walling and then we’ll go to the other question.

TP: Just you know positions would come up that would, you knew and everybody else knew in that department, would lead you into management and to higher levels which was never where I wanted to go anyway but there were women there that did and they would give them, stonewall them on why they couldn’t go ahead or why they couldn’t get into that position and keep them where they felt they were safe and not causing trouble, not bringing these new ideas in you know and not in a so evident way that they could ever do anything but you know because they have all these performance reviews every six months where they would identify things you’d have to work on and goals you’d have to meet. So they’d use all that to manipulate the situations which everybody does ok. I mean this is part of the business world out there, so you know there are definitely things that and maybe it’s changed now but I don’t think so because you know when I talk to my friends here, it hasn’t. Things are still the same. They want that good ol’ network of where they feel comfortable at the top, you know.

PM: Now where is the ceiling?

TP: I would say you know foreman, superintendent anything above that you’re going to be hard pressed. You know when you get up to the line manager jobs where you’re over a couple of paper machines. I think there’s probably very few women out there in the paper industry that are at that level. Or mill manager you know I mean that type of level where you can only go so far, ok and these guys are being groomed to be the mill manager. These, I’ll never forget these two guys, Mark and Shawn, they came in when I did with Champion and my sister graduated a year after me and she co-oped at Champion, was offered a interview, you know brought in for an interview through the process and these two guys. I mean we had a whole process of interviewing girls, women I mean and men for engineering positions and these two guys did not want her in there. I mean they would have probably killed one of their kids just to keep her [End Track 6, Begin Track 7] TP: because we’re very similar you know in how we are, in our personalities and they were just so threatened I’m sure by me. I mean but eventually they had to tow the line because it wasn’t about what they liked or disliked, it was what was the best for us and she was top of her class. I mean smart, did a lot of hard work but again a very sort of, a woman but these two guys there were groomed right from the beginning when they started there with me to be at that top level. Ok, and you could see and it would just sort of irritate us you know that they would get and they were just horrible, horrible leaders you know as far as being nice to people or just accepting other people’s opinions or, they were always right and they were like 22 years old. I mean one of them, Shawn I would tell Shawn, hun you’ve got to have a little common sense. Well I said and that comes with years of experience not from you just getting a degree. Well I’ve always… I mean just in denial about who they are

PM: That’s a familiar story, unfortunately.

TP: Yes, unfortunately

PM: Back to where you were moving to a different company.

TP: Yes, so then I got an offer from one of Champions biggest competitors, Consolidated Paper. They were two that were the top coated paper producers in the United States. They are both bought out now but they were then and it was at a new mill up in, they had just bought up in Michigan, the upper peninsula, Niagra paper and they were starting up a new coating plant they just built and they needed, I was a product manager there basically and moved into the superintendent spot at that mill and I really enjoyed that mill. It was actually less, there were men there less threatened by who I was. My technical manger was great. He loved me. He tended to be a little less assertive himself so he liked the fact I think that I was because I would tend to bring ideas and stuff into the situation and it was actually a good mill. It was more the area. It was just real redneck up there which I mean I grew up in Maine but that was probably even worse for me for some reason so I moved out west to a mill after a couple of years there but it wasn’t as bad a situation as what they tell you they did. I had a couple of issues with, there was a couple of superintendents that you know didn’t like it. We were in groups together because again their ideas weren’t just accepted. You know I thought questioning and getting more ideas on the table isn’t going to hurt. If we come back to this one, that’s fine. You know we had a buyer side supplier which had been in the mill for years and they were all buddies ok and had all these big events and fishing trips and skiing trips every year and you want to do what? Oh my god and I’m like all I suggested was we could get a better program, save money by making the three top suppliers of our buyer side programs come in and compete for our business and to pick the best one and you know you lay out plans and have, it’s not like you just do it off the top of your head. I mean they give presentations and tell you what’s going on and give you the products they’re going to use and you make a logical decision on product and cost and determine what’s best for the mill and they were just very threatened by that and it all worked out in the end but I went through a lot of, one of the superintendents going to the mill manager, she’s yelling at me. I mean I couldn’t have a conversation with somebody some times without it being she’s yelling because I would be talking just like I am to you but I tend to be very you know assertive about my opinions and what I think should be going on and you know heaven forbid should I pound my fist because that would have scared all of them. But you know so you know I would threaten, I think I’m sure I threatened them in the fact that I was so assertive and they would go running, oh she’s yelling and I would have to get a talk to about how I was yelling and I’m like I’m not yelling and you know it’s you against them so I never fought that battle. I just went ok, I’ll work on it. So I had to talk very quietly to them and it actually all worked out. This one superintendent and I actually became very good friends you know because I think he finally realized I wasn’t after his job. I mean that’s the biggest thing too you know it’s more I was really for the good of the mill and what was best. Again I was never about moving up to the mill managers spot. I just was happy I had a good job. I had two daughters you know, I was able to support them, benefits and I was making great money doing this you know. Why would I want more headaches?

PM: When you, you said you had an offer now how did you, did you actively seek that job in some way? How did that come about?

TP: It was through a friend of mine I went to school with that was, worked for consolidated and he contacted me and whether, they knew I had coating, a good, solid coating background and that’s limited out there sometimes in the paper industry. That type, especially with a new plant that was built and designed and we started up the product and these formulations are all secret you know. You have to sign agreements when you leave all these mills, of course none of them know they’re all the same anyway but you don’t tell them that. But so he contacted [End Track 7, Begin Track 8]

TP: and I contacted the head hunter I always worked with and they got in touch with the people. That’s how it all worked out. I mean they fly you out for several trips. It’s great, give you signing bonuses. I was just like, I thank Michelle my friend everyday for leading me into this career because it’s definitely been very financially good for me but it’s not always about the finances either.

PM: So what’s the mill in Michigan you worked at?

TP: Niagra paper.

PM: Niagra paper and then from there you went to?

TP: Oregon, Westland paper in Oregon, new mill. It used to be an old Simpson mill, two gentleman from Canada bought it and were opening it up. It’s a free sheet, like Niagra, a free sheet mill; just means there’s no wood or mechanical wood. They use all craft fiber and the paper is just freer. It flows better and it’s brighter. So they were starting up a new mill and the head hunter friend of mine that knows me, contacted me and see if I was interested. I went out. It was a good job offer. I went out as a product manager and was promised within the year, the year and a half to move into the superintendent of the coating area because the gentleman was going to be retiring and that was why I left eventually from there because that didn’t happen but yes the mill was good too. The workers were great. I really enjoyed working there, didn’t find it was a good technical department, didn’t find a lot of men in that department that were threatened but it was a big start up so everybody was new coming together. It wasn’t a mill where people had been there for years. Some old workers came back that used to work for Simpson but the technical department was really a bunch of new people and the mill manager. So it was a good, healthy environment but you know you get right back to the same products in the end, you know they eventually put me in the position that they verbally told me I would have eventually, which wasn’t a big deal to me as much as the mill manager saying to me well you know Terry you should just think of me as your father and so I just looked at him one day and I made the decision at that point within the next month I left the paper industry completely and just said you know I can do, and people would go how could you just do that and, my daughters were grown and not so much dependant on me financially anymore so, and you know it was more that I just said you know I don’t have to, I’ve done other things in my life and that was the key too. I wasn’t afraid to leave even if I had to waitress you know what I mean, I could. Luckily I fell in with a gentleman that I now do environmental testing and air quality and I’ve done that for the last six years out there, or five years out there and so I just happened to fall into that job which the money was not as good, probably about half as where I was when I left the paper industry but it’s not about the money. You know I enjoyed that type of work. It was less, there were no men that were threatened. I mean I had a lot of men, mostly men that worked under me on asbestos and lead, bowl jobs and never had a problem you know.

PM: What is your position with the testing company?

TP: Basically I go out and I write protocol for remediation and abatement work but I do air quality testing. I have a laser particle counter where I do air quality and I do air sampling for mold, radon testing and do home inspections too.

PM: What’s your position in terms of the hierarchy of the company?

TP: Well it was a small company. The owner was my friend. He owned it and I was his environmental engineer. Ok, basically and we had another gentleman that did air quality testing and we had a superintendent I guess you’d say. He sort of was the partner too. They opened it together. He did all the abatement, asbestos abatement. He got me into that and but I did most of the air quality, mold testing.

PM: So you pretty much had an equal footing with all the other people.

TP: Yes.

PM: I mean in terms of status.

TP: Exactly and it really never mattered, you know and again that was never anything that mattered to me, the title. It was more the respect, you know of your opinion.

PM: Exactly.

TP: I never cared about, like I said being the top of the list as much as listen to what I’m saying without crying about it later. You know I mean…

PM: Now what was it like for your daughters, you said you were a single mother and you had two daughters and you moved from one place to another. You had to leave Maine, how did that go and did you have any problems with childcare and that sort of thing?

TP: I was really lucky. When I left here, my daughters were both in school. One was in 8th grade, the other one was in like 5th or something. They’re three years a part and so never had a problem with babysitters but I’ll tell you a nice little story about that in a minute with one of the guys I worked down to Bucksport but we moved. You know it was hard for them to leave their friends here, their whole family, my family, all their cousins but I could ask them right now and they would say yes it was ok you did all that because they love Oregon. They’re both in love and [End Track 8, Begin Track 9]

TP: so I think if nothing else I taught them how to take a risk. I taught them the risk of you can leave someplace you’re real comfortable with and safe and go somewhere else and oh it ends up being just like that other place. Because they both, you know got good friends in the high schools and junior highs and you know did very well in school. Both of them are smart girls. They both run businesses now. I mean and they’re a lot like me you know and so I think they would look back and now at times I’m sure then they were unhappy. One was in Michigan, one was, I was the cheering coach, she was making varsity and very unhappy that I was moving her to Oregon where she’d never, you know they missed the try-outs, she was able to get in though and I actually ended up coaching out there too but I mean, so things all worked out. I think if nothing else I gave my girls that, that they know they can always take a risk and go somewhere and change their life and it will be ok if they’re ok. It’s all about how they feel. You know and if you’re happy in what you’re doing, that’s why I came back to Maine. I just said one day, I like my job but I’m working 70 hours a week and I’m getting up and I’m getting paid and I’m paying the bills and what else am I doing. Taking care of my grand kids but it’s not my life you know and I said my daughters, I need to give them time to sort of grow by themselves and come back where all my friends are. I was telling Amy I have six friends that we grew up since we were five years old in South Orrington and we’re all back now. You know, friends are really probably the most important thing in your life I think you know and that’s it, you learn to make decisions. My company, now it’s TP Environmental and I do the same thing out here but I’m starting slowly. You know I’ve done a couple jobs but it’s not about the money. I have low overhead.

PM: Hold on, did you start a company?

TP: Well I did. I mean I started my company out here in Maine, TP Environmental.

PM: Ok, that’s what I’m asking you .

TP: But it’s like me. It’s just me.

PM: But it’s a company.

TP: It’s a company yes.

PM: When did you do that? When did you come back?

TP: In April when I came back to Maine.

PM: This year.

TP: Yes.

PM: Ok.

TP: And I’ve started out slowly. I’ve done a couple jobs you know and have an office at my mother’s house so low overhead and I do a couple other things on the side with the schools and my cheering so I can survive. I have a good 401K, the great thing about..

PM: What was the last thing you said, cheerleading?

TP: Cheerleading. I’m a cheerleading coach too. I’ve taught, or I’ve done cheerleading for about 15 years at high school level.

PM: That’s neat. My daughter was a cheerleader so

TP: And I loved it. It was fun.

PM: Are you working, doing something with Orrington schools?

TP: Yes. I just talked to their superintendent and I’m going to come in just on a volunteer level and help them out. I’m hoping to also get into some elementary, junior highs, high schools to talk to girls and boys, I’m not going to segregate, you now that this is only a conversation for girls because I think it should be a conversation for boys today to that engineering shouldn’t scare you.

PM: There’s a lot of underachievers in Maine, period.

TP: There are.

PM: Both sexes.

TP: Exactly. You know they’re just like da-da-da, like you know and it doesn’t have to be when they’re 18. But they need to keep that insight out there that hey someday maybe if I go back to school, this is what I want to do.

PM: That’s great.

TP: And just give them an idea of, you don’t have to go in the paper industry. You don’t have to, you can do a lot of things with engineering degrees, you know, besides and you can run your own businesses. I think a lot of women end up doing their own thing eventually.

PM: You were privileged in a sense that you had an education when you went into the mill and now did you have any interaction with women who came into production maybe out of high school?

TP: Oh yes and the difference there is they’re protected by a union, ok.

PM: So you’re not in the union as management?

TP: No, they can fire us at any time. I mean when IP took over down there, they ended up laying off my sister so I mean you know, no you have no protection at all in your job except your own protection and you make sure there’s other options out there. Ok, but I actually have a good friend, Terry Range she worked in the mill for years, way before I got there in the maintenance department which is one of the toughest areas to be a woman in, ok. She was I think the only woman down there but she’s a lot like my personality, just very strong, assertive. She’d hurt somebody if they tried. I mean she’s not a small woman either, you know and very attractive so I mean I knew several women that worked out on the floor and in the maintenance departments and they had all the same issues but they were also protected a lot more by their unions on these types of things. They’re moving up seniority was based on seniority, ok.

PM: Right.

TP: Not on who liked who, ok.

PM: Yeah, I understand.

TP: It made a little more sense, I don’t know about experience instead of oh, but I really like him. You know, he’s a lot like me. Well maybe that’s the problem so I mean and that’s it too, you have men in those higher positions that they want to see themselves succeed. And I’ll tell you probably one of the biggest issues I have out there working with men is they’re so afraid to teach you what they know because you may become them and one thing I think women do is and very well [End Track 9, Begin Track 10]

TP: is the ability to not be afraid to let people know what they know and I taught a lot of people, not that I knew a lot but just the theories behind things. They knew what was going on but I would explain to them why, you know and giving them that knowledge helps them at getting better at their job. Men are so afraid to do that. You know they’re afraid to teach you, the people, I never was afraid to teach young engineers what I know because I want to move and they want to move and that’s how you move you know but that’s why things don’t move with men a lot because oh no, this is a secret. Well whatever, you just learn it on your own which probably was better anyway.

Amy Stevens: Do you think that means men are more competitive in those types of fields or is it just a different personality trait all together?

TP: I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s probably a little of both. You know I’m competitive. I mean I was always competitive but again it was never about winning as much as doing the right thing. Ok, and I think men are more about winning. See my idea, I won.

PM: You were going to tell me a childcare story.

TP: Oh yes, one of my technical managers down at Champion, when I first started down there, my kids were little and I had a girl that came into my home in the mornings before they went to school, you know 5:30 in the mornings because I would have to be to work at 6. And she called in sick one day and I, it’s 5:30 in the morning you know. My mother wasn’t available. She was actually on vacation. I would have taken them over there in Orrington but, and my sister was in school. So basically I called work and said I’ll just be in a little late and I eventually found somebody and got in there. Well my boss like read me the riot act and brought me in his office. Well him and his wife had things all set up so if there were any problems, they had backups, backup babysitters. I go really. I said well I said, I had back up babysitters but they’re my mother and my sister who happened to have not been available either. I said and I’m a single parent, what does your wife do? And I knew she stayed home. He’s like oh well. I said you know what you better step off that line. I said because I’ll tell you, you have no room to talk to me about childcare. I said I’m here for 12 hours a day, putting in my time right along with these guys and I never complain. I come in at 2 or 3 in the morning and I deal with it. I said once in awhile, I may have a problem. I said and you better get used to it. I said because my kids come first. And that was it too, I mean it was never a big problem with me saying my kids come first. Well he was just this little guy anyway and he was like oh ok. But it was like, as a woman not being afraid and I was older so I wasn’t ever intimidated by any of these guys.

PM: That’s important that you were able to stand up to it.

TP: Yes, but I think it also helped other women coming into those positions because there’s one girl, she’s still down there. She’s going out for her third baby so I mean it’s giving them the ability to see that hey, we have to cop with this situation. My sister had four kids. I mean, and she had two while she was going here. She’s crazy. One she was like pregnant, people thought she was pregnant for like two years because after he was born, she kept him in her coat. It was wintertime and he was just sleeping all the time, like one of those bunt things. But, yes I think childcare for single parents is probably one of the biggest thing for professional males to deal with. They don’t understand why it’s such a problem.

PM: Well I do.

TP: Exactly, we all do because we want our kids to be safe and taken care of well and not just leave them like, where was I going to leave them with the neighbor?

PM: Did you ever experience any illness or injuries on the job?

TP: No, I’ve always been very healthy so never been any problems.

PM: What about other women? Did you ever notice anything, difficulties?

TP: No, I don’t think so, not at the mills I’ve worked at.

PM: Are they pretty safe in terms of the chemist-

TP: Yes.

PM: The reason I’m asking you this is because I’ve read quite a bit of literature and this relates primarily to places in Denmark and other parts of Europe where women have come down with various illnesses as a result of working in paper and pulp mills.

TP: Well you’re dealing with a lot of different chemicals and it depends on the type of process. I never was in a process where we produced crafts so never had a chemical process with pulp which can give off fumes, dealt with a lot of coating products but always was safe, wore gloves and you know goggles, eye glasses. Champion and all the companies I’ve worked with had very good safety programs so never had an issue with that, luckily enough.

PM: Now what about male, female relationships in the mill that developed as a result of working…

TP: My sister dated a brand new, she was three years younger than me so she was 32, 33 when she came into the mill and it was about two years after she got there, there was a new guy that came in, Matt and he was 23 and they ended up living together. They’re not together anymore but they were together [End Track 10, Begin Track 11]

TP: for about six or seven years. You know there was never any issue. There was never any rule that you couldn’t date somebody that worked there. There was a lot of that going on.

PM: Did it create, did it put people in a position where they might have less opportunity or anything? I mean was it kind of looked down on even though there was no rule?

TP: It might have been but I don’t think so that I saw at all and no I wouldn’t say so. I mean just like, I mean they always thought they had to treat me and Ronda as one person because we were sisters you know and we had to work on that for a year or so to get them able to see that you know we’re different ok. So no I don’t think there was ever any issues, more than normal anyway because of that happening.

PM: Yes. You got into the mill in the 90s when things were much better for women.

TP: 80s, yeah 87, 88 I started working in the mill.

PM: Oh you did.

TP: Yes.

PM: Ok, so you were working before you graduated.

TP: I did. I worked down there for a summer before I even went back to school and then I co-oped there too so in the 80s.

PM: I didn’t realize that. Ok, well the reason I said that is because I think things had improved by then for women from what I understand from talking with other women, that some of the first ones going into were in the 70s

TP: Yes, I’m sure that must have been tough and I’d like to say yeah it was better but I really don’t know that because I don’t think it was. It was frustrating to me at times that it was as bad as it was. Ok, so I wouldn’t have been able, I would have had to kill somebody back in the 70s or some guy and thrown him in the pulper. I used to tell the guys up in Niagra that hunting season was here and they better be good because if I caught them in the parking lot, my operators in the coating plant, I said I’d run you over, strip you naked and throw you on top of my car and drive around for a couple of weeks. That’s how us women hunt in Maine. This one guy came in he’s like I had a nightmare. He said that you had me on top of your car naked, driving me around and all the women were laughing. I said see so you better stay out of the parking lot.

PM: That’s a great story.

TP: But yeah, it was good and bad. It was more, I was lucky because again I didn’t care about where it was going as much as it was good right now, you know and then when I did care I was like well I’m out of here. But I feel bad for women that probably have struggled again my good friend Mary down at the mill still that probably isn’t happy where she is but will stay there you know instead of looking for something better. She’s got a lot of good experience. She should feel good enough about herself that she could do that and not be afraid to do that you know, step out of that box a little bit, it’s ok. I mean you don’t know the men, I mean the meetings I’ve been in. Men are disgusting to work with. Ok, again I love them but here I am, most of the times you’re in meetings yourself with men and they’re scratching or fixing or pinching. I said at the end of one meeting, they were like does any one else have anything to say? I said I do. I said how would you all feel if I sat here and started rubbing my boobs. I said because I’m really getting tired of you guys not being able to control your hands in a meeting and they all laughed because they knew me. They were like it would be ok, Terry if you did that. I was like of course it would. But you know what I mean, it’s like they wouldn’t care because they’re all just a little bunch of dogs running around. I mean, and again I love them to death and they’re intelligent human beings but their habits are just amazing. You can’t stand next to in a mill to some man, I mean I had two guys standing here one day. I’m talking to them about something, rubbing you know and picking their nose. I’m just like hello, I mean would you do this in a professional environment? No, and you’ve got to put up with that stuff so why would you want to be a woman in these fields but it is fun. On a level there’s a lot of good stuff too you know. It’s just funny, the things that I have seen and being the person I was, I was never afraid to comment on it so if there was a problem the other women would come get me, ok.

PM: Tell me about that.

TP: There was a guy that, I mean Michelle’s very staunch any way but you know and I knew the guy for years. He was in the mechanics department. He’d come in through the basement and he would whistle at us every day and she was ready to like write him up so I had, and she was just like would you just go talk to him Terry because she didn’t want to cause a problem but you know things like that

PM: So what did you say to the guy?

TP: I just said would you stop, you’re going to get yourself in trouble number one if you don’t, she’s going to haul you down front. You’re going to get written up and you know something’s going to happen to whatever happens in your little world. I said then you’re going to get pissed. I said all she wants you to do is stop. Well she’s a very attractive girl, long legs

PM: He was walking real close though?

TP: Yes, I said she just wants you to stop whistling. She doesn’t want to get you in trouble, could you stop. He’s like yeah, I said because next time you do it one more time, I said she’s going to be so I [End Track 11, Begin Track 12]

TP: I was like the pre

PM: Mediator.

TP: Yeah, the pre –, it would just go, because I knew a lot of them too and they knew I wasn’t.

PM: Were these mostly production guys that do this kind of thing.

TP: Oh yeah.

PM: As opposed to management.

TP: Oh no. You mean the stuff I just talked about?

PM: Yes.

TP: in the meetings, no these were management people in the meetings. That’s what I mean, they’re training all these new engineers to be like them. I’m like don’t do that. I’d have a couple of engineers that would be working with me, I’m like don’t act like that and I mean it so I mean, and that’s the other thing, I think the more women that do stay in that industry and train, I’ll never forget, we’re interviewing people, I love this, for process engineering positions and it was a round table. Me and my sister and Ellen Tobine, she’s been in the paper a lot lately, I came back and her husband is, but anyway she was an engineer down there too. The three of us were at a table with a couple other male engineers in the department and two new people, two males and one of them says, now I just can’t believe he says this. He goes so the three of you got into this mill because of quotas?

AS: Wow.

TP: And I looked at him, I go you don’t want a job here.

AS: Oh my gosh.

PM: Oh my gosh.

TP: And he was young.

PM: And stupid.

TP: I mean and he just really believed that though. He really believed that, I was just like you know I said I would be really offended if anyone hired me because of a quota and not because I couldn’t do the job. I said, and plus that would just be stupid to pay me all this money. But yeah, they were just, there were young men in my daughter’s high school class when we lived in Michigan that would say to me, you can’t be an engineer, you’re a woman. I’m like yes I can be an engineer. So it’s all about…

PM: You’re a real pioneer.

TP: I don’t think so because again there were a lot of women out there before me

PM: Not that many.

TP: But I think it’s more I was just never afraid to speak my mind and never have been in whatever I’ve done. My friends say that all the time. Good, bad, or evil, I’ve always been happy. So the bottom line is I think I’ve made good decisions in my life.

PM: Any pornography?

TP: No.

PM: It was gone by the time you got there.

TP: Yeah, we would find magazines and stuff in the operators booth but nothing bad or real bad and if we did, I would just take them and throw them away. We had this one guy in the coating department, I’ll never forget, he was taking a piss. We had these big areas where you know it’s all cement floors and drains, instead of going to the rest room, he was taking a piss out behind the operators booth you know and I walk around and there he is pissing. I go you can’t be doing that ok. I said now if I could do it we could all do it but I said I can’t do it. I said, so you’re not doing it either. I was a foreman there and he was on my crew. I said so if I see you do it one more time. I said I’m going to have to write you up. I said you’re not going to leave me any choice. I always gave people one warning and they knew it. I’m just like as a parent I was very, consistency to me is key. That’s the problem with these kids today so I would always, my kids know I say it once and if they did it again, the consequences would come. So he just looked at me. He turned around zipping up his pants. I go and do I need to see that, no. Well and again, I’ve always been a little annoying and obnoxious too. My professors will tell you that so I had one, Dr. Vossbeal, we were talking about condoms one day.

PM: I know him.

TP: and he walked into class and he was only like right out of school, he was just starting in and his little face turned all red but yeah I was telling the boys how they needed to be using them because I had daughters. There was a room of these 18 and 19 year olds, all they were talking about is what they did the night before you know, not about the work they should have been doing.

PM: That’s funny. Did you have special clothing that you needed to wear to work?

TP: No basically jeans, t-shirt, work, you know it was steel toed boots.

PM: Steel toed boots.

TP: Yes, you had to wear steel toed boots.

PM: What about other things, hard hat?

TP: In certain areas you had to have a hard hat on, your safety glasses of course.

PM: Safety glasses.

TP: But you know no high heels, no dresses. You know just casual wear. I mean you could wear jeans, khakis and then all your safety gear and ear plugs.

PM: And the regulations were the same for men and women?

TP: Oh yes.

PM: As far as clothing goes.

TP: Oh yes. We didn’t like our men wearing dresses either, not at work anyway. I’ll never forget this event because they’d have big parties where everybody would bring their wives and you know me and my sister would go as dates together and I was about the size I was now by the time I got out of college unfortunately but she was still skinny and cute and she would come and wear these little tight dresses with high heels to these events and all the wives would go, are you working in the mill with her? I’d tell them she doesn’t look like that in the mill though.

PM: That’s funny. Yeah, that’s interesting. [End Track 12, Begin Track 13]

PM: So you had when you were talking about that incident with your boss the one time you had the childcare issue, did that ever change while you were, I mean did the whole attitude towards childcare change at any point while you were working in paper?

TP: No. They expected us to be there with no excuses.

PM: Ok.

TP: Just like the men who had the wives at home taking care of the children. That was one of the things, there was not really any kind of flexibility with that. I mean you couldn’t use that as an excuse several times and get away with it. You would get, there would be something, somehow you would be punished. You know whether it is within your promotion, through your promotion, you know your performance review, and that depends on what you get for a promotion next year, what percentage. You know that could be one little thing, oh well see you were not here so yes I would say they would definitely be strict about that stuff. It was never an issue with me though. I always had it covered but yeah I’m sure there are issues with women out there, they probably need to deal with today. I mean these women that I worked with hadn’t started their families yet. My sister and I already had ours and but they hadn’t even started theirs so I’m sure there’s a lot of issues. If I had to have dealt with while I was pregnant and trying to get the time off and what happens when you come back? Do you lose you know where you were.

PM: Right.

TP: I don’t know about any of that things but I’m sure that it probably wasn’t fun and probably isn’t fun for some of these women out there.

PM: Do the companies offer any kind of training that can allow you to move in to new directions?

TP: As far as up?

PM: Yes.

TP: Yes, I mean Champion you went to I had a three week course down in Stanford Connecticut at this place where they train management. You had to take all these management classes and they had onsite classes and it’s the same for everybody. A certain point in your career developed, but that’s what you do. You go off and do this. So and it was always the same for everybody.

PM: And it was available for women?

TP: It was.

PM: Ok.

TP: Through all the companies I went to.

PM: Ok, lets see what else.

AS: Can I jump in with a couple?

PM: Go ahead because I’m thinking.

AS: You mentioned the one instance of the woman and the whistling and everything, did you have to deal with any other sexual harassment issues or anything, either yourself or you know with other women that you worked with?

TP: You know sexual harassment to me first of all is only sexual harassment if it bothers you personally.

AS: Right.

TP: And I’ve always told men that I’ve worked with, it’s not sexual harassment until I tell you please don’t do that again and if you do it again, then it’s sexual harassment. It’s real hard to sexually harass me and it is. That’s just the truth of it. I’m the type of woman that I’ll tell a dirty joke ok but I’ll always ask first if it’s ok. But me personally, I’ve never been sexually harassed on the workplace. I’ve never been said you do this or you don’t get this, never happened. But I’m sure there are other women out there that it’s happen to. I mean it’s more the situation. In fact there were several instances, in a mill environment there are many places you can get caught alone. Ok, where you’re the only woman there and there’s some guy walking through and I believe there was an incident if I remember correctly at the mill with not one of the technical people but somebody on the production line that had an issue with a man and he was, it was taken care of and dealt with through the union. I mean that’s the good thing. These people are protected that way, that things like that don’t happen but he was harassing her and catching her alone in places and you know and that’s stalking basically but as far as on the technical department level I don’t remember anybody in that way at all at any of the mills I’ve worked at had any problem.

AS: You keep sort of saying how you’re always you know say what you mean and you know tell dirty jokes and don’t mind telling the guys what you think and everything. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about whether or not that’s typical in mill women. You were saying things about…

TP: No it isn’t. My friend Michelle is very, very professional. She would never tell a dirty joke in the mill. She would never put herself in a situation where and she’s a very assertive woman but she would never put herself in a situation where she would tell a joke or any kind of social, she’s not as social as I am I would say and my sister also is not as, she’s a little more serious in the way she is. In fact there’s probably not many like me out there. I think I’ve met maybe one other woman in a mill environment that’s like me but for the most part I think a lot of women go into those jobs and positions very professional. You know wanting to make their mark, be taken seriously [End Track 13, Begin Track 14]

TP: and to be taken seriously you’ve got to be serious and they lose who they are when they do that and I think a lot of it is just being who you are you know and it doesn’t mean you can’t be strong and professional but you can’t always just be that hard core person all the time. You’ve got to let go a little bit you know and let people see who you are because that’s how you get people to open up to you and tell you, you know well geeze I think we should do it this way or not be afraid because they’re sitting there going oh she’s just going to think this is stupid. You know people open up to you a lot more if you’re willing, if you’re accepting of it. If you’re sitting there going, and men and women both do that. I mean so but I think women tend to feel afraid like Mary you know, she’s got to be like one of the guys because she won’t get to where she wants to be.

AS: And by that do you mean like the management guys or production guys?

TP: Well I think in a way both ends are the same as far as the men go but the management obviously have a lot more power, ok, over where she goes and what happens. So she wants to model herself and a lot of women do this in most industries over who they work with and lose who they are. So I think we lose a lot of potential in what we can do in this country just for different industries where we can go, get rid of the environmental issues. You know we have the brains to do it. We just don’t have the ears that want to listen to it and again I think women get caught up in that same thing. They have to. Again, I was lucky. I was older already. It was hard to change who I was.

AS: So when we were talking on the phone about how you said you thought a lot of women changed their identity, it’s more becoming more serious and not being themselves as opposed to going into a production environment and becoming more crude or more, you know things like that.

TP: Yes, exactly. I mean just they adapt to the environment instead of bringing who they are to that environment.

PM: I wanted to ask you a few sort of cultural questions because we’ve been interviewing people, some older people too who’ve worked in the mills years ago about some of the sort of culture of paper making which there is a whole thing that’s unique to the paper making industry. One of the things that has come up frequently is the kind of initiation, pranks and things that take place in the mill, can you comment on any of that?

TP: I mean I think that’s more out on the production area’s you know where people that are working. You know you’ve got a new guy that comes in and they’re not going to tell them what they know and again it goes right back to the same concepts of that stuff they know and that’s their job security. So I think a lot of times they’ll let young newbie’s whatever they call them, they have a name for them mostly in every mill. You know they make them learn the ropes. You know make a few mistakes, waste a little money, you know get in trouble and they’ll learn better instead of teaching them what they know because if they teach them what they know then they don’t learn it the hard way. You know so I think of course, I’ve seen things where people have come in and not stayed and women probably get beat up a little harder on that issue out on the floor. I mean in that respect I think we have more protection in a professional area because they’re forced to respect us. Ok, you know what I mean, she’s got her degree. She’s from that department, you’ve got to respect her. Somebody that comes in on there crew even though they’re protected by the union, they’re not protected by them having to teach them what they know. Ok, and that’s where they get them, I think more than anywhere is and you probably don’t have…

PM: You think they get discouraged.

TP: Yeah, exactly they get discouraged and leave because you know they’re just not learning and they’re not helping you know. They’re getting in trouble to some extent probably and so I mean I’m sure there’s a line where those guys know they can go to without getting in trouble. They’ve been there for years so

PM: I had a follow up and I just lost it. Wait a minute, oh yeah so did you have any of that, you mentioned it was more on the production but was there any you know if a young engineer comes in is there kind of a temptation to give him a little bit of a hard time and make them do some silly things?

TP: I’ve never seen that.

PM: No.

TP: And I’ve never done it personally and I’ve never seen it either, I don’t believe and it may have happened but to me no and to anyone I’ve been around, I don’t think so either. I think for the most part they’ve been pretty consistent in what they do and luckily enough I think it’s more from when I came in because people had been there before and struggled with these issues you know and so they probably got forced to stop them at some point. I’m not saying it never happened. I’m sure it did so

PM: There’s a lot of traditional knowledge in paper making that I noticed [End Track 14, Begin Track 15]

PM: and I think this is very interesting, there’s you know the production guy whose been doing this for thirty years who can tell by touching the paper how thick it is and the guy who is the engineer with the measure x machine who has the computer that measures it and what interests me is the tension between these two where the guy from the computer will tell the production guy he’s off when the production guy will say no your computer’s wrong.

TP: Well and to me I think there’s a much more wealth of knowledge in that worker than in that piece of equipment because equipment is only as good as the person setting it up and operating it versus a man that’s worked on that paper for twenty years that’s seen it every day of his life. I mean that’s part of the problem with these mills closing down and these people trying to get other jobs, they’ve only done this one thing their whole life, you know and it’s hard to transfer that over to different avenues but that’s where I learned. I was lucky at Champion. The one thing that that mill gave me is knowledge because I was able to get into these areas of operation and be accepted and they’d go come here Terry, I want to show you this and you know I mean that’s where you learn. Is not from, I learned more out there, just like you do every job. School just gives you the key to open the door to get in ok, once you get in, the people who have been there is who teaches you, where what you need to know because they’ve been doing it for years. So I mean I had a couple of uncles that worked there and you know cousins so I was very lucky that I had people that knew me from high school that accepted me even though I had came in with a college degree and taught me what they knew which was good. So you’re right and they’ll probably always be that frustration especially as we move even more into technology where there’s a lot more equipment on those paper machines now that do everything you know and these guys feel less and less safe about their jobs. You know because as they need fewer and fewer people to operate a machine and that’s part of them holding onto that knowledge. Again, it comes back to the knowledge. You know but to me we can learn more and move faster and ahead of, and keep the industry here because the paper industry is hurting, is by sharing the knowledge and figuring out what’s best for the mill because they won’t be here for long.

PM: Do you think that’s a fundamental flaw that is affecting the industry? Is that what I hear you saying?

TP: I do. I think we’re afraid to think of new ways to make the paper good, to make it right or do better and so we get stuck. I mean I honestly don’t think Champion at Bucksport will be there long, coated paper is going out. You know they all want to consolidate. You know that’s what happened. Champion got consolidated, got sold, who bought them out? Big paper companies that don’t need to keep them open and they look at shipping costs, unless you make a product that’s innovative and light weight, whatever it may be but you need everybody to do that and that’s it too, I think teaching both sides to respect each other. You know and be able to share, those guys knowing what the calibration should love that machine giving them that information. They should use it to their advantage, instead of making it their enemy. You know and then they might get better eventually because they go oh, ok, they could be the calibration for that piece of equipment. You know I mean it’s just things that are not being done that probably could be done.

PM: Yeah. Were you ever working at any mill where there was an accident, or someone got hurt?

TP: There was a young man at the Niagra mill and he was, they used hoses, air hoses to spray out paper in the dryer drums and he got sucked into the dryer drums and I mean basically crushed the air and then dumped down in the basement and he was killed in that mill and that was back in, I forget, when I first got out there so it would have been 96 I think or 97 but yeah, so he was a young kid. It was a sad, sad accident.

PM: How does something like that happen?

TP: Just not being safe. He’s not suppose to have the hoses that close to the dryer cans and you know he just got pulled in, his arm got stuck and then it just pulled him right in before somebody could hit the button. He was the operator and nobody else was there on that end of the machine. So I mean mistakes that shouldn’t have been made, that’s for sure you know. Rules that were not followed as far as safety goes

PM: So what happens when an accident like that occurs?

TP: Well that machine was obviously automatically shut down, emergency crews were brought in, paramedics but he was, I mean there were people already down in the basement working on him. [End Track 15, Begin Track 16]

TP: CPR but it was too late. So I know insurance wise he was a union worker so I’m sure his family was taken care of

PM: What about on the job? Is there like…

TP: But they changed procedures I’m sure within that operation, I wasn’t on that machine, that particular machine so I don’t know all the details but I know that they definitely when something like that happens they’ll change procedures and make sure things are, and obviously it wakes everybody up to go oh, we better not do that again and a lot of it is operators where they just think they’re infallible. They just need to make sure there are people down there with them. This machine is running 40 miles an hour, ok. It’s like a car going down the road and if you stick yourself in front of it, it’s not going to be fun so they just get lazy I think a lot of times because it runs so well most of the time. So, and there was a gentleman, geeze down in, when I was in Michigan, it was down in the lower part of Michigan at another mill that got murdered. He was thrown in a pulper down there back in the 90s by some guys that were mad at him for something he was doing or telling somebody and those pulpers are 200 degrees worth of pulp in there and he was killed instantaneously but that was a big thing when I was out there in the Midwest at that mill.

PM: Where was that mill?

TP: It was down in lower Michigan. I want to say it was at a, not a GP mill but I forget the name. It’s one of the mills that’s been bought out now, one of the companies. I forget who it is.

PM: Did they catch the guys? I’m just wondering if you know.

TP: Oh yes. They found out. I think it took them awhile but they knew who it was, they just had to get the evidence on them so and they did eventually through phone taps and stuff, I think to get the guys. It was two guys involved.

PM: That’s really interesting.

TP: I forget the whole story now but yes it’s sad though. But yes, paper mills are a dangerous place to work. Luckily as a manager technical person, you’re not out there every single minute of the day. You know, a lot of office time and so you’re not put in that kind of safety situation as much as operator’s are.

PM: There’s a whole language of paper making too. I noticed there are certain, not just names for things, which obviously a measure x machine or whatever but also things like, words like broke.

TP: Well broke is the pulp that you’ve already made paper and it’s trimming off the edges of the paper machine or you know the rolls bad so they cut it up as broke. That’s the pulp that we reduced in the chest. I mean that basically is recycled, post-recycled paper. So it goes into big tanks because they don’t want to throw it down the sewer. I mean that’s good paper. It’s like making a pie, you’re trimming off the edges of the pie and so that’s broke, yes. It’s the stuff I saved Champion a million dollars a year because they were dumping it down the toilet. Well and environmentally they saved. I mean Champion also produces electricity down there. They have a big turbine.

PM: Yes, I heard that.

TP: They make about a million dollars a month just on electricity selling it back to the electric company, plus produce everything they need at the mill. So if nothing else that mill could be a nice little electrical generator, future for them.

PM: So I guess I just wanted to see if you had any comments on the language of paper making that you could send my way. Now you’ve been working in the paper industry a long time so you probably don’t even think about it too much.

TP: I don’t.

PM: It’s pretty automatic.

TP: It is, I mean you know, I mean broke is one of them, reels of paper, you know

PM: Machine chest.

TP: Head box.

PM: Head box.

TP: Yeah, head box is where the pulp comes out. It all gets mixed up. Machine chest is where you blend your two pulp that’s down below the paper machine or whatever pulp you’re using in that paper you blend in that chest. It comes up to the head box and under pressure it gets sent out on this thin wire [fortnier] wire but there’s like dual head boxes. These paper machines that they have like down at Beloit in Wisconsin, a little pilot paper machine that’s got a twin wire on it where papers on both sides of this wire, coming out at 40 miles an hour so and then you have the drier section. Then the coaters which I’d put on the paint, that’s what I did most of my time was and it goes on at 40 miles an hour through these little jets out onto the paper and then they, coating blades where they wipe off and then there’s the driers, [IR] driers that would dry the coating and then the winders which wind up the paper and get it ready and the sheet. They have sheeters which if you’re producing sheets or rolls

PM: Calendars.

TP: Super calendars which are just big rolls that paper slides in and out of and they gloss it up with steam and pressure and make it glossy and smooth and shiny and pretty [End Track 16, Begin Track 17]

TP: They went from there onto these big logs and then they go to the cutters where they cut them all up into specific sizes but yes it’s a whole, if you ever, I’ll tell you the best mill which its unfortunately its down now, an interesting mill to go to is Eastern Fine Paper in Bangor, in Brewer because the machines are like about this wide as this table and just real tiny like paper machines and they are so fun. They did a lot of federal paper there I think and watermarks. It was an interesting mill to really go to because the machines were so little to.

PM: Yes. We actually have been through there. I have.

TP: I love that mill. I’m sad it’s down now.

PM: Yes, very interesting. Yes, unfortunately a lot of the stuff has been taken out.

TP: Yeah, they had some neat stuff in there.

AS: But it is neat how everybody takes on this language. Like out of all the people we’ve talked to you never hear anybody say, I went to collect the you know, post-recycled paper or whatever, or I went to collect the broke. It’s I was hustlin’ broke, I was a broke hustler. That’s always the way.

TP: Yeah, because at the end of the machine you know anything they cut off they have these big forks they’ve got to shove down into the pulper and that’s just a hole you know where they pushed down in these big tanks which is dangerous.

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