Amy Stevens: I’m going to say this is Amy Stevens and it’s January 24th, 2006 and we’re at the home of Keith and Wendy Durrah in Brewer. Could you just say your name?

Wendy Durrah: I’m Wendy Durrah.

Keith Durrah: And I’m Keith Durrah.

AS: Now Keith and Wendy have actually agreed to do this interview together so feel free to jump in at any time for any of my questions. I usually just start by asking what you did in the mill and when you worked there.

WD: Do you want me to go first? I started in 1988 and I started out in human resources doing just general office work then I went part time while I was in school and worked in HR till ‘94 and then I went out onto the production side and did production scheduling. I worked in finishing doing their scheduling for years and at the very end I did both paper machines and finishing.

KD: I started in 1983, ‘84 as a general laborer in the finishing department, [inaudible] converting starting out. I spent all of my career in converting, ten years in the union doing such jobs as rewinder operator, [shipper, shipper lead person] or any of the other jobs that were out there and spent [ten] years in the non-union facet as a technician, supervisor, superintendent role.

AS: Did you work under Wayne Robinson at all?

KD: No I worked with Wayne Robinson.

AS: With, I’m sorry. I just interviewed him this morning.

WD: Oh you did?

AS: I found out [so much] about the finishing department, so, it’s quite a place.

KD: Yeah, it was.

AS: So you both worked right up until the end when the mill closed?

WD: I left 2 weeks before it closed for the job I have now.

AS: Okay.

WD: And Keith was there ‘til the end.

KD: And I stayed ‘til the end.

AS: Now I wonder if you could tell me a little bit Wendy about human resources [inaudible 2:28]

WD: When I was there, Donna Holland was in charge and you know, it was, I was there right as Mr. Torres bought the mill through that transition, you know it was, it definitely offered a different perspective because you know we dealt a lot with the union side of things so, you know it was basically the same. It leant to a different side, this was you dealt more with the managerial staff than you did the union employees. Then I did work with some of the union reps answering grievances and those sorts of things.

AS: [What are the types of grievances that you’d deal with? 3:10]

WD: Oh goodness, both of us could answer that. You answered as many as I ever did, we did a lot on scheduling you know, you called the wrong person in, seniority issues, what else did we?

KD: Attendance issues.

WD: Yeah, attendance issues, you know, I mean, we had a lot of attendance issues, not coming to work so we, that generally was a big one.

KD: Job performance.

WD: But the grievances I think were pretty much on, scheduling issues were the big thing, you know, you put the wrong person in the wrong spot or they thought you did and that sort of thing.

AS: So would you have to make up the schedules, or?

WD: I did when I, on both sides, we both did. When I was in HR, I did the finishing schedule because at that point Keith was not there, so they really didn’t have anybody to do it so I did the finishing schedule. Then when I flipped over and went to the finishing side since I was good at it in HR, they let me do it over there. Then Keith came, his position was created and he took over the actual finishing schedule for the people. I handled the equipment scheduling, scheduling the paper to go to converting, so.

AS: So Keith, when you started out as a general laborer, what things did you do? I mean, how did you sort of work your way up?

KD: Well I started out on [internals] on the second floor. That was the first big position I held in the mill. It was just a progression, moving into different jobs that we thought we’d like and [getting rid of the ones that we didn’t]. Rewinder operator

KD: was another position that I held for awhile and that kind of transcended into an embosser operator, they’re close, or similar in some aspects in the way that the machinery runs and what we have to do with the machinery. And then the shipping area. Shipping was a highly sought-after job, in the fact that it was, it would work into a day position, Monday through Friday, which was very desirable so that was my goal to work a normal work week and get away from shift work eventually and that just led into a lead man position in the shipping department which took me from there into, you know, the technician area and, [WD to daughter, referring to dog: Just put her out.] outside the union itself.

AS: So were you both from the area when you started at the mill?

WD: Yes.

KD: Yes.

AS: And were you, you know, did you grow up in the South Brewer area, go through the high school system? Did you have family working at the mill?

KD: I did have family at the mill. I had two uncles and a cousin that were working there. I actually grew up in Orono.

AS: Oh ok.

KD: So, somewhat familiar with the mill. It was a place that, you know it was a good place to go to work.

AS: Did your connections there, do you think, help you get a job there, or?

KD: I don’t know that they did. They may have, something may have been asked at some point on my behalf but, I don’t think that that was necessarily the reason.

WD: My aunt and uncle both worked there. My aunt was the HR manager. My uncle was, had run finishing for, since what, when did he start, ‘53? In ‘53 and, yeah I was pretty sure. I came in as a student so, you know, students were always the relative of somebody and I never felt like I stayed for that reason. They offered me the full time position basically because they wanted me to do that and moved from there but like he said, it was a good place to work. You know the pay was certainly better than the average around here and it definitely left you settled in the beginning, not so much at the end.

AS: Yeah. Now did you have to have, either of you, any skills to start out at the mill? Did you have previous experience or was it on the job training when you got there?

KD: It was on the job training. I worked as a short order cook, dish washer prior to my mill years so there was really no transfer of skills there, you know, other than hopefully my work ethic.

WD: [To Keith, referring to dog: Are you going to let him out?] Yeah, I would agree with that. You know, I started, like I said I was 16, 17 in the summers so there wasn’t much. I learned everything along the way.

AS: So now you worked as a student for summers. And when was it that you got your full time position, right out of high school or?

WD: I went to school part-time.

AS: Ok.

WD: And worked straight through, went to college part-time and did it full-time right through that.

AS: What did you get your degree in?

WD: I never finished.

AS: You never finished?

WD: No I’m finishing now. Now I’m in, I work at Bangor Savings now. No I had never, I was working towards a B.A. in Business Administration.

AS: At Husson or?

WD: Yes.

AS: I upset the dog! [laughs]

WD: No, normally we let him out and about so he’s used to being crazy but he would calm down. [To Keith: I thought you were going to let him out but. Yeah, ‘cause we’re not gonna listen to him.]

AS: So could you take me through a typical day in human resources?

WD: Oh, that was a lot of years ago. You know we did the basics. We, there was a lot, like I said, a lot of meetings, a lot of phone calls. [Wendy gasps as dog nearly knocks tape recorder on the floor. Amy laughs. Wendy to Keith: Well you have to grab him!]

AS: Aw, we’re still rolling. We’re all right. [laughs]

WD: I don’t know that I remember much about HR. I’ve got to be honest, it was a long time ago now. We did, we met a lot, we worked a lot on seniority issues, those types of things. HR’s very project-oriented by nature so, I mean, I’m back in HR now and, it’s pretty much whatever happens to be for that day.

AS: And then after human resources, where did you say you went to?

WD: Then I went over to finishing and scheduled the production equipment. So that you know, that was basically went around, found out where everybody was at for the day, priority of items that needed to be finished that day or that coming week. We had a morning production meeting to see what had happened overnight. We actually posted production for what had been finished the night before, got that entered into computers and everybody up to date and then, scheduled everything for the day and made sure there was packaging and all that stuff available and. I mean, you know, that was it.

AS: Sort of a variety.

WD: It was a variety but it was much more task-driven, you know, there was a start and a finish, you knew when you were done. And I’ve always liked that part of it. I mean there was a lot of variables but it was, as opposed to HR work which is very project-driven, this you felt you, when you were done, you were done.

AS: That’s a good feeling

WD: It is a good feeling.

AS: At the end of the day.

WD: Yeah.

AS: Now Keith, you said that you had worked as a ring winder operator and I’m not quite familiar with that, could you explain that a little bit?

KD: A rewinder.

AS: A rewinder, I’m sorry.

KD: Yes, what that does it takes a large size roll from the paper machine and cuts it down into narrower-sized rolls, to ship.

AS: Okay. And then what was the next one that you said you went into?

KD: An embosser operator.

AS: Embosser operator.

KD: That takes a sheet of paper and puts an embossed finish on it. If you think of, like, how a paper towel looks or a napkin, that linen emboss.

AS: Oh! Okay.

KD: That’s the sort of finishes that we would do and it just made the paper more valuable, a higher end product, value added, value added equipment.

AS: Now in the finishing department, were there both men and women that worked there pretty evenly or was there more of one than the other?

KD: There were more men.

AS: More men.

KD: Yeeah, there were, I don’t know what the relationship as far as percentages were but there weren’t a lot of women in the production environment, there were a few.

AS: How about in human resources in the scheduling and those types of areas?

WD: There were still more men.

AS: Still more men?

WD: Yeah I mean, I think when I left HR we were somewhere, I mean we had less than a 25% ratio of women even including office staff and, yeah it was, you know even when you think about customer service, it was almost all men. Yeah, it was definitely more male-dominated.

AS: And in terms of like the shipping and that type of thing, the finishing department, would that be like fork lifting reams of paper, would that be, what aspect of…?

KD: That could be anywhere from working on the roll wrapping line, where they would actually wrap rolls of paper that you would load on trailers or, hauling away boxed product from the finishing equipment, warehousing and, then there was an end of it where you would actually go out into the warehouse and pick cartons of specific paper for a customer and ship paper out that way.

AS: So did you have, did either of you have a mentor in your years at the mill that really stand out in your mind, somebody that you sort of connected with or taught you skills in a certain area?

KD: I don’t know, there were a lot of good people. You know I look back at the rewinder days, probably a gentlemen that would come to mind would be Norm Hammond. He was, you know very good, a very good operator and showed me what I needed to do.

WD: And he was valued right ‘til the end. I mean from every aspect Norm was viewed as being, you know -

KD: An exemplary employee.

WD: Yeah from when you worked for him to when he worked for you, I mean, Norm was…

AS: Yeah, that must have been interesting. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that transition?

KD: Well it really wasn’t as bad as it could be. You know you go one day working with, you know, the guys to the next day, you know, supervising them. It was a pretty good bunch of people for the most part so. I mean that’s not to say there weren’t challenges that kind of got in the way of some of the stuff that needed to be done but I think overall it was fairly non-eventful.

AS: You said [inaudible] you were a union member and did that change when you went into your supervising position?

KD: Yes and I left the union to go onto the finishing technician job. It was a non-union position so I [left?] the union at that time.

AS: And how about you Wendy, were you a union member?

WD: No.

AS: Ok, so salaried, salaried-job people tended not to be in the union?

WD: Right, yes. Well and not just salary, I mean we had non-exempt that were non-union.

AS: Okay.

WD: I mean the only people that were union were actually the production people that worked on the equipment. [To Amy, referring to dog: That cat’s driving him crazy. He’s running around.] And I never worked in an actual production role, so I was never in the union.

AS: Were there issues in, you know, transferring from a production to a supervising job in terms of having that change of relationship with the union?

KD: [KD and WD laugh] That’s a good question. It puts you on a different side and you have to think from a different perspective. The union didn’t always view things the same way as, you know, the non-union side and this different, I don’t know if you want to say agendas of you know what was going on but. So that did present some challenges in how those things had to be resolved and the way that you worked those through the channels. Ultimately in the end I think, you know, if you could be consistent in what you thought and what you were doing then everything pretty much evened out and worked out.

AS: So do you feel that the union was helpful overall to the workers?

KD: Yeah, I think they tried to be.

AS: Obviously can’t have a 100% success rate but it was a positive thing to be involved in the union and…?

KD: Well, I really didn’t have much need to have union involvement in my work, in my work life other than, you know I wasn’t, I didn’t need the union to come in and step in on my behalf the way that some folks did so, you know I basically paid my union dues which was a requirement of being in the union and being in the union was a requirement of working at Eastern in the production area so, you know I paid the dues and they were there if I needed them and, I really didn’t so, you know they expend their efforts on other areas so.

AS: Now for both of you working in a non-union capacity I guess, were there any major disputes that either of you had to be involved in or that you knew of maybe that you weren’t involved in?

WD: I certainly was because I didn’t have a supervisor. I did not supervise any union people so that left me pretty much out. I mean, there were disputes I think daily, you know it’s, yeah, I think that they, being in HR you know you were always facing, there were arbitrations and different interpretations of the labor contract and, we did sit through many of those. I mean Keith was involved in some, I was involved in some, but.

AS: So at that level would it be more about things like scheduling and…?

WD: It was, attendance, terminations, all those sorts of things. But they were kind of all in a day’s business. I mean, a lot of people ran through with those same problems. I mean they were reoccurring. I guess my answer to the question of was the union helpful might be different from Keith’s. I really saw it as a hindrance towards the end. I felt like we spent a lot of time on issues that just would not have been issues had we not had the union involved, you know people missing ten days of work and you were spending money on attorneys

WD: fighting because you know the, I know where I’m at now that that wouldn’t fly, you know, so for me, but I had never been in a union capacity and I went to work everyday, I didn’t have a lot of use for anybody who didn’t and, we were in hard times and we all knew it. And, inevitably, we both felt that was our livelihood and it was hard to have a lot of tolerance for people you felt were playing with what was keeping a roof over our head, and…

AS: So people were kind of using the union to their advantage in ways that [inaudible]…

WD: I think Keith put it politely when he said the people who used the union, not all the time certainly, everybody has run-ins or misunderstandings and there’s a time and a place for it. But the same names crop up in the union shop. I mean I think you could ask any of the 550 people there and we could probably all name at least one of the same, you know, one of us if we named ten there would be one common name just because those are the people who utilize that now, I mean…

KD: The same ninety percent of your time was spent on the same ten percent of the work population and there were certain employees that, I think towards the end with all that was going on and, you know, just the heightened [inaudible] of the uncertainty of what was going on just magnified a lot of issues that, [I mean, would certainly] not have been an issue prior to that, but they were looking for, you know ways to make things better, not knowing what that was going to be or how to do that, that was like a big problem. And I think that everyone tried but it just, you know, it was a doomed vessel and there wasn’t much that any of us could do at the end to turn it around and pull it out so.

AS: Now did either of you two ever see signs of this coming or, you know, were there distinct decisions made by the owners [or the management] that you could kind of say now, you know, that really pointed to that, or?

WD: I mean I think everybody, you’d have been blind not to see that it was coming. I, you know, we dealt, we both dealt on a daily basis of meetings with Mr. Torres and the mill management. And I never felt like one decision was made, I felt every decision that was made was an attempt to do the best they could. But, I mean towards the end, after the first cut back in—what was it, February? And, of whatever year that was, the year before we closed—I mean, cash was obviously an issue on a daily basis. I mean I spent ninety percent of my time locating materials and trying to utilize cashes effectively as we could. I mean I just talked to our controller from the mill yesterday, he’s in Berlin, New Hampshire. I mean we became close friends through the process just because it was a constant struggle. But I certainly never felt like there was one thing that said here’s the mark. I mean, we knew Mr. Torres was dipping into his own personal retirement fund to fund the mill, somehow you know that’s just not a good sign. You know when somebody is bleeding at, I mean and we all heard the facts. “We’re losing a million dollars a month.” You don’t lose that very, it doesn’t take long to go completely belly up. So by the time we got the phone call for Keith not to go back, I mean I don’t think anybody was surprised. I mean, I still remember the night and I don’t think we even had much of a conversation. It was like, “Well, there we go,” you know just grateful that one of us had found something somewhere else. We felt we were in a different situation because our whole life was tied up there. I mean literally, our house, our family, our, everything. So for us we felt it was very stressful at the end you know, we needed to make sure we had something else to rely on because obviously unemployment wouldn’t support us for long. So, and it was hard, I mean, because we had grown up at the mill, both of us. When we got married, we were there, we met there, we had a baby there. Everybody felt very connected and I mean I didn’t want to leave at all. The day I left I said, they had offered a package for me to stay and, I wanted to stay and the controller’ss like

WD: “This is a sinking ship, it’s a matter of time. You should, you know you need to secure your family.” And Keith’s like, you know, “Wendy come on!” but it was hard.

KD: The funny thing is we joked about it, you know, was the matter of the fact that when we went into Chapter Eleven, in the first three years you know I started looking for [inaudible] jobs [inaudible]you know and nothing came about and, Wendy was the one that wasn’t looking and she was the one that found a job [inaudible; laughs].

WD: [Laughing] Yeah.

AS: Yeah, that’s [the way, isn’t it?]

WD: It was.

KD: I was, you know, grateful that one of us was able to and she left work for a great position at the bank and is doing very well so, I mean we were fortunate in that, in that respect and, I was fortunate enough to land a job three months after the mill closed, and I always say had I known it was only going to be for three months I would have enjoyed that vacation a little more. [All laugh]

AS: Yeah, yeah.

WD: But it is odd, once it did close, you know, the change in your feelings towards a lot of people who, towards the end they had gotten somewhat, I don’t want to say bitter but, people were distressed, I mean definitely and, the union, the management it was a less than probably desirable relationships at that point because everybody, I mean you know the state of the economy and you know we are all frankly overpaid compared to a lot of other industries. And, you know, I mean Keith went into the unemployment circle with all of his friends and the bank had done some sponsoring of training and Keith helped with that and everybody was, it kind of did feel like a family after the fact. I mean, there’s nobody you don’t wish well on. I mean it was not the most fun to watch people go through it.

AS: Did you stay in touch with a lot of folks from the mill?

KD: Well, you think you’re gonna stay in touch with more than you do unfortunately. There are some that we’re still very close with and people that we see, still. Some that we thought we would but probably we don’t. But, you know, you see them you know on the street or in a store and you have a good conversation. You know, you have a lot that you can talk about still, and. People I think for the most part are getting past it, I believe, the people that I’ve talked to. I guess they’ve moved onto better things and.

AS: Now were you, did you do any sort of job retraining or any of that after the mill closed?

KD: No I didn’t, only for the fact I was employed so quickly. I wasn’t really looking to re-school or anything like that. I was looking to get back into the work force.

WD: [Referring to dog: I think he’s okay now.]

AS: And where did you end up going when you [inaudible]?

KD: Oh I’m doing something I never thought I’d see myself doing. [Wendy laughs] I’m in a sales position. I sell Verizon for telenetwork communications so it’s, you know, a great job. It was a great opportunity that came my way at, you know, when I was at the mill if anybody had ever asked me if I thought I’d be a salesman some day I would have thought they were crazy. That would be the last thing that I would do but, it seems to be working out pretty well, so.

AS: So going to a little lighter subject I guess, you’re pretty close with a lot of people that you worked with at the mill. Now, did you do things outside of work, socialize outside of work, that type of thing?

WD: We do have, I mean my best friend, one of my best friends, Nicky Desecere—well, she’s Fletcher now—she worked in HR with me. She was in our wedding. Abby [Keith and Wendy’s daughter] was in her wedding. I mean we’ve-- [To dog: Sam!] We’ve all, we’ve remained close with her.

KD: Bill Henry.

WD: Bill Henry, he worked for Keith in shipping and we still see him. There’s a number of people, Dola…

KD: Wayne Robinson.

WD: Wayne Robinson, we see him. You know not as many as you want, but it’s more a time thing than anything. But you know basically, that’s about all we see. But even--Oh my goodness, I am so sorry! [Referring to dog jumping up on Amy’s lap.]

AS: [laughing] He’s fine, he’s fine, I’ve probably been spoiling him [inaudible] but I don’t mind. So would there be like mill-sponsored Christmas parties, retirement parties or anything like that?

WD: They gave retirement parties I think before the Chapter Eleven but they were for retirees and managers. At the time neither of us were, we never went. We did company picnics early on, but those types of events were hard just because we worked, they had, we had so many shift workers so it was hard to get everybody and they were expensive and unfortunately most of the time that I was there, we were in, you know, we were in financial downturn so, by the time I was actually involved.

AS: Were there events within the departments, was that more common?

KD: More so like in customer service. Christmas parties [inaudible] there or the front office staff, you know, the machine room might have, they might all bring in food, celebrate Christmas or something that they were working but. You did have some departmental things but they were very sporadic, pizza or, you know, if something went exceptionally well or, we did that a couple of times but there wasn’t a lot of money for that sort of thing.

AS: Now what about like pranks or initiations, any of that type of thing within the different areas of the mill that you experienced?

KD: Oh, there were always, you know, the good-natured ribbing, things like that. You know, “paper stretcher,” you know send the new guy to get a “paper stretcher.” No such thing but it sounds like there could be so [all laugh] just you know, fun stuff like that.

AS: Nobody ever hoisted your lunch pail into the rafters or anything?

KD: No, I had some people eat my lunch once in awhile, but.

AS: Oh! [Amy and Wendy laugh] How about you Wendy?

WD: No, there was nothing like that from where, in my life, no.

AS: How do you feel about the mill and how it contributed to the community when it was going strong?

WD: I never felt like it was valued as much as it should have been. That was always my personal perspective sitting back. I mean, Brewer really down—and I mean I live in Brewer and appreciate, but we used to always say, you know that we were a big tax payer and we practically supported the wastewater treatment plant, hence why my water bill has skyrocketed since the mill’s closed. I mean, so I never felt like it was given as much probably, you know, fame as it deserved. But, you know in hindsight once it closed, it was big news. And there’s a lot of history there and, you know now Brewer is kind of picking it up and trying to run with it, which I think is great, whether that happens or not you know you never can tell but that was my opinion.

KD: I think I share that as well. There wasn’t a lot, you know a lot of things can go wrong in a paper mill and a lot of bad things can happen. You know, Eastern didn’t seem to have a lot of the skills and things like that that generate big news out there. So it just kind of plugged along and nobody really paid it much mind until it was too late and then it was gone and, you know, it’s too bad that, when you make the news and make the papers for that wrong reason. It is what it is.

WD: I mean I think as an industry as a whole, I don’t think Brewer’s exceptional to it. I think, I mean they’re all, it’s a tough, it’s a tough industry now, sure.

KD: We have a lot of friends that went to work at Lincoln and we hope for the best for them up there but knowing what the paper industry is in Maine, you know, I mean you hear it all the time, you know, down the river in Bucksport they’re struggling. It’s a never-ending story of paper mills in trouble, and fighting to stay open and.

WD: And it was something we talked long and hard about. I mean I went to the bank before, I took a large pay cut which, at the time to go and when Keith was looking, we talked about do we relocate, you know he looked at some other paper mills in other states. Do we move? And the end result was, we need a new industry because I mean I was 34, 35, the chances that this one’s gonna be here at 65 are slim so we better find something a little more stable. And we both agreed with that. So we did, we made the choice to leave it all behind and it’s a different mindset. I mean we, it’s a joke at the bank. I mean people who deal with me all the time, I’ll say things and they’ll go “Well there’s your mill talk.” [laughs]

AS: Oh yeah, like what?

WD: Just, people deal differently. You know it’s a bank. Things are handled the same but they’re much more polished, a little bit more professional face put on it but I’m like, “That’s still mill life I guess.” I can hear it in there. You know, there’s still the ribbing in different departments and. All businesses pretty much run the same but certainly the best part about being in the mill was that we said it like it was. I mean, there just wasn’t the time to move it along and, you know, I was just, it was pretty, you know you were allowed to be who you were and say things the way it really was. We weren’t big into fluffing things up and decorating them.

AS: Very down to earth.

WD: It is very down to earth and I, you know, that isn’t something that you get in every industry and certainly banking isn’t known for that. I mean, I love where I’m at but we do laugh all the time because I’ll say something and, “Leave it to you Wendy!” I’m like, “What can I tell you?” We have a lot of mill people at the bank you know. We’ve got a few from Bucksport and like we all say, it’s just a club, so.

AS: So you both actually met at the mill?

WD: Um hmm.

KD: Yeah.

AS: Did you know each other before working there?

WD: No.

KD: No. We were on the [interviewing committee when our romance stepped into it.]

WD: I led it from the HR side and Keith was still in the union. He was the union rep. That was it! It was a quick romance and here we are 11 years later!

AS: You had a daughter?

WD: A daughter, yeah, and that was big news. Yeah we didn’t have the dog and two cats when I was at the mill. [Daughter in room, inaudible.] Yeah, we had the two cats. [To dog: Sam!]

KD: And we have another daughter as well.

AS: An older daughter?

KD: Yes.

AS: So when you’re talking about how it’s an unstable industry, why do you think that is that, you know, paper was flourishing twenty, thirty years ago, and now it’s just like you don’t even want to get into it anymore?

KD: I think it’s the cost of doing business in Maine, proximity to the rest of the country, you know, transportation costs, [sale, they all] are a hindrance to being able to get the product out as cost effectively as you need to. You know, foreign competition. You don’t have some of the money being pumped into that industry that foreign countries put into their, you know subsidize their paper industry, I don’t know.

WD: I think wages

KD: Wages.

WD: are a big thing.

KD: Workers comp.

WD: Yeah workers comp. costs but the wage base. I mean, like I said, I left the mill and went to a very productive bank and took a large cut in pay. I mean it’s been two years to get me back to where I was when I left and I think nationally speaking anything with the union attached to it, the wages have been forced so high that it’s just, it’s tough. I mean well, we see it today with Ford motor I mean, but your average production line worker they said is making sixty-two thousand dollars a year. You know your average banker makes thirty-five.

AS: Or your average teacher.

WD: Your average teacher or a lot of different things, that’s just, that’s huge. I mean, and I think the country’s just grown accustomed to those sorts of rates. I know when I was looking at the bank and I said to somebody, I’m like “Well jeez, they don’t pay very much!” and they’re like “Nobody outside of these production-based companies do so unless you want to stay in an unstable environment.” They certainly do, you work your way into better jobs but those entry-level jobs I mean, our union people started at like $13.50 an hour. You know a bank teller starts at $8.25. That’s a huge swing for somebody equally as trained, and I think that that’s got to have had an effect and I think the cost of oil this year is probably killing anybody. Just I mean, it’s not great for any of us, but when you’re running a paper machine, going through hundreds of thousands of gallons a day, it’s got to be brutal.

AS: Well I think I’ve asked you just about everything I had, are there, you know, stories, anecdotes, anything that you want to get in?

WD: None for me. Do you have any?

KD: Well there must be a good story out of twenty years but, you would think.

AS: [laughs] It’s hard when you’re put on the spot, isn’t it?

WD: None you want recorded. [laughs]

KD: Yeah maybe not, that might be true. [WD laughs]

AS: Well thank you both very much.

KD: You’re welcome.

AS: And if I think of anything else I might give you a call to ask some follow up questions or something.

WD: Sure.

AS: And I hope that you might be able to come to a meeting in the future. I think we’re gonna try to have another meeting for the employees and actually put on a barbeque in the Spring or something. It’s so great to have everybody together and they all seem to really enjoy it and we enjoy it because there’s a whole, you know, different stories that come out

WD: Oh yeah.

AS: when you get twenty or thirty people together. It’s kind of riveting

WD: That’s right.

AS: so, it’s a good time. But I really appreciate talking with you.

WD: Sure, thank you.

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